Getting Stronger: Discussion Forum

Discussion Topics => Rehabilitation => Topic started by: SlightlyMypoic on July 30, 2016, 11:06:45 PM

Title: Astigmatism from print pushing!!!
Post by: SlightlyMypoic on July 30, 2016, 11:06:45 PM

I have been print pushing with Plus Lenses for around 12 months now, and my overall vision has improved dramatically. At my 'worst' it was at -2 diopters in both eyes. Currently, I am around -1 in both eyes, although it does feel like my vision fluctuates up to -1.5.

When I began my journey to 20/20 vision, I picked up a pair of +1 glasses and began print pushing, just as was shown in Todd's video. After roughly a week, I could certainly notice a dramatic improvement in vision: everything was more precise and just easier to view. With my increase in vision, I noticed that I started seeing double for some reason (as in there was faint letters on top of the letters I was viewing). I thought nothing of it at the time, and assumed it would disappear if I continued to print push. After a few months, the clarity of my vision improved, although the astigmatism continued to increase.For a while, I plateaued and saw no improvement at all. I chose to upgrade to a +2 lens to print push with. However, this only made my astigmatism EVEN WORSE. I can't say for certain that it was print pushing with a plus lens that caused my astigmatism, as there are obviously a few variables at play here. However, it is certainly a striking coincidence.

I'm at a point now that I don't know what to do. if i continue to use a +1 lens, my vision will not improve at all. If I keep using a +2 lens, I feel as if my astigmatism will continue to increase.  I want to get to 20/20 vision as some stage, but if my astigmatism continues to increase, I will never get there (in fact everything will just deteriorate) Can anyone provide me with some help!?

Title: Re: Astigmatism from print pushing!!!
Post by: infinitesimal on July 31, 2016, 06:34:55 AM
I  had a similar problem, well I shouldn't say 'had' since my eyes are not back to 20/20 yet... My left eye wouldn't improve beyond the -1 line and my right eye succumbed to increasing astigmatism and grew worse (extreme double letters on the snellen chart, all the way till the top letter on the chart) after I had started and continued training with a  +1.5 or +2 lens.  I think this has to do with the eyes still converging too much (in combination with the added stress of wanting your eyes to focus)  although the text is at arm's length (40 - 50 cm) and the focal muscles are more or less put out of commission by the +1.5/+2 lens.

 I took up Jake Steiner's method and instead of print-pushing for an hour - which refused to produce any more positive results for months on end and in fact made my results on the snellen chart slightly worse after a session of print-pushing with a +2 lens - I went outside to the shopping mall for an hour and read the signs from a distance (especially the ones with big letters and smaller ones below those) and my eyes started to improve again and my astigmatism in my right eye is currently weakening. I made a variation on his method by going on bike-rides while at the same time trying to read roadsigns from a distance. I'm not saying this method is the holy grail but contrary to print-pushing this method  gives me results again. I think if the myopia is below -1 print-pushing is a method to improve your eyes while sitting in a comfortable chair inside. Then again.., there are individuals out there who say they managed to get back to 20/20 by doing print-pushing but it's not working out for me, at least not all the way... So you could try this method and perhaps this will force your eyes to improve further, there's no harm in trying...

I'm sure you've found this already, after all we're all  obsessed with getting rid of our myopia but below are some relevant links to Jake's sites.

Jake Steiner's site http://endmyopia.org/active-focus-links/
His channel on youtube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEhYxefHylpSgoiXDWcBrlA/videos
Title: Re: Astigmatism from print pushing!!!
Post by: OtisBrown on July 31, 2016, 09:18:48 AM
Hi,
For both of you - I wear a +2 to +3 for ALL CLOSE WORK.  Nothing scares me about doing this.  Astig, is almost never a problem.
Both of you should check, not with an OD , but your own Snellen.  If 20/40, you are very lucky.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DCf95n8yD0

The "last stage", is conducted by pilots - who have no doubt about the total need for plus-wearing. 

This video was for my nephew - who just wore the plus though the "education years".

Enjoy,
Title: Re: Astigmatism from print pushing!!!
Post by: infinitesimal on July 31, 2016, 04:56:14 PM
I think we won't settle for 20/40, Otis.
Title: Re: Astigmatism from print pushing!!!
Post by: OtisBrown on July 31, 2016, 07:21:57 PM
I think we won't settle for 20/40, Otis.

Hi - always a good statement. 
The point is this:  YOU make the objective measurement - yourself.  I always set reasonable goals for myself - that I have a chance of obtaining OBJECTIVE success.  This saves me the problem of "fighting" with an OD in his office - who truly does not give
a damn about me and my distant vision.  (I do not blame them- that is just the way they THINK.)

I set 20/40, (self-measured -1 diopter) as a starting point for all efforts to get a +1 diopter change.  At 20/40,  you can
avoid all wearing of a minus lens (a major success - if you make that judgement).  Now, what you must achieve is
a self-measured change of +1 diopter. For me, that means I wear a +2 to +3 for all close work, and accept
it will take about one to two years to get that type of reasonable change.

But then - true prevention, is both  objective and personal.  Make your choice with scientific wisdom.  There
is no way I can tell you what you should do.

Enjoy,
Title: Re: Astigmatism from print pushing!!!
Post by: SlightlyMypoic on July 31, 2016, 07:34:05 PM
I had a similar experience. A few months ago, I wen't for a Week's holiday and had forgot to bring my plus lenses. On the plane ride home, I consciously recognised that my astigmatism had almost completely disappeared. When I got home, I used my plus lenses and immediately (20mins or so) the astigmatism came back as soon as I took the glasses off.

I think I am so caught up in the belief that print pushing with plus lenses is the only way to improve my vision. So when I feel as if my overall vision or astigmatism is bad, I just increase or intensify my use of the plus lenses in the hope that it will rid of the problem. However, this only makes everything worse.

I certainly will adopt your advice. Since you began your current method, do you still print push with plus lenses, or have you stopped completely?
Title: Re: Astigmatism from print pushing!!!
Post by: OtisBrown on August 01, 2016, 04:11:32 AM
Hi Slightly ,
I understand your pain.  What we can not measure - we fear.
That is why I suggest to a person, that he get his own trial-lens kit, so he can actually MEASURE the amount of "astigmatism" he might have.  Failure to do this - makes you guess and worry.  How much do you measure?

For myself, I do my measurements using the 20/20 line as standard.  Thus, if I am reading the 20/40 line, I would use a -1 diopter (spherical) to see if that cleared the 20/20 line.  If I could do that, I would not worry about astigmatism.

NOTE: The NORMAL eye has astigmatism in the range of 0.0 to about +1.25 diotpers.  I ALWAYS requested that NO ASTIGMATISM be prescribed for me.  My goal is that I wear NO LENS for distance, consistent with me exceeding the 20/20 line.

You comments are valuable to me - and I enjoy them.
Title: Re: Astigmatism from print pushing!!!
Post by: infinitesimal on August 01, 2016, 04:54:39 AM
SlightlyMypoic@ I did exactly the same, I had no improvement in months so I increased the number of print-pushing sessions, I was even that desperate for results I  print-pushed during commercial breaks on television. but my eyes failed to  improve beyond the magical -1 line while my right eye developed rather severe astigmatism so I felt quite down for months. At least I did try, no one could tell me I hadn't the virtue that is patience but still very unsatisfactory.

I completely dropped print-pushing in favor of going for a walk in the mall for an hour while actively trying to read signs from an appropriate distance. The appropriate distance is the distance where you almost can make out the letters but not quite unless you take a step or two forwards. Of course you won't take those steps but want to force your eyes to read the letters anyway (you blink, blink and blink till the letters are in focus). Posters are well-suited for this, big letters you make out quite easily but the smaller ones below will give your myopic eyes a tough time. Can't make out the smaller ones read the bigger ones again and alternate. Come back the next day if you don't succeed today. A supermarket is an excellent place to pull focus on signs near you and far away. Neon signs at night are great opportunities to pull focus on. But don't overdo it, if it won't happen today try tomorrow. And prepare yourself for the fact your eyes will be tired after an hour's exercise.

The drawback is that people start noticing you're staring at something :-)

Otis@ I do my own measurements with the aid of the snellen chart so it's kinda of an educated estimation.  I started off with -1.5 and currently I'm between -0.75/-1 (left) and  -1/-1.25 (right) and wear a +1 when doing computer work.  A +2 gives me the bad kind of eyestrain because I have to place my screen a lot closer to my eyes (less than 50 cm).  I might use a +2 or even a +3 in the future when my eyes are finally back to normal. I keep my fingers crossed for the latter.

 I never wore a minus lens although I once bought  a pair of minus glasses. However.., after putting it on for just a couple of minutes I realized my focal muscles were working overtime and after taking off those glasses my sight was even worse than it would have been after sitting behind the screen for hours on end. The gentleman selling the glasses told me my muscles were adjusting and I thought "Yeah right, believe that and see pigs fly". I never looked back and started print-pushing and now focus pulling in the shopping mall, my myopia has weakened a little bit and there's no longer a need  for minus lenses to watch television.
Title: Re: Astigmatism from print pushing!!!
Post by: OtisBrown on August 01, 2016, 06:02:10 AM
Hi Infinite,

When I found out that wise ODs KNEW the minus was a disaster, then I choose to educated my relatives to the need
for long-term plus wearing.  I said they had to personally always exceed the 20/30 line, ALWAYS.

NOTE:  If a person is at 20/40, his refraction is probably about -3/4 diopters. (He should always check himself.)
That means that the amount of plus he can use for reading, is "cut" by about -3/4 diopters.

BUT - if you see yourself gradually being able to read most of the letters on the 20/30 line (always have that
Snellen on the wall), THEN you can increase the strength of the plus by +3/4 diopters, and that
is highly recommended.

The real problem is this.  People hate wearing a plus for near, for the long-term.  That is the true
reason why no OD or MD will even discuss this issue with you.

For me, I just love to read my Snellen at 20/20 to 20/15, and wear the plus for all "near".  It
is low-cost, easy, and pleasant.  Because I have the competence to check my own
Snellen, I have NO CONFLICT with any medical person.
Title: Re: Astigmatism from print pushing!!!
Post by: Alex_Myopic on August 01, 2016, 03:31:41 PM
I have seen a lot of reports mainly from http://www.i-see.org/ that during eye rehabilitation many people exchanging sometimes precisely the myopic dioptres they had with diplopia-astigmatism (in minus cylinders). But astigmatism of -1cyl is better vision than -1dioptre myopia. Diplopia is an unavoidable stage especially at the last diopter. I don't believe plus lenses make it worse but may help to the above exchange. I did active focus (Jake's thing) on astigmatic wheel many times but it wasn't the magic bullet to fix it. Jake also tells that sometimes with excessive ciliary strain temporary diplopia can happen.
Title: Re: Astigmatism from print pushing!!!
Post by: OtisBrown on August 01, 2016, 06:16:20 PM
I have seen a lot of reports mainly from http://www.i-see.org/ that during eye rehabilitation many people exchanging sometimes precisely the myopic dioptres they had with diplopia-astigmatism (in minus cylinders). But astigmatism of -1cyl is better vision than -1dioptre myopia. Diplopia is an unavoidable stage especially at the last diopter. I don't believe plus lenses make it worse but may help to the above exchange. I did active focus (Jake's thing) on astigmatic wheel many times but it wasn't the magic bullet to fix it. Jake also tells that sometime with excessive ciliary strain temporary diplopia can happen.
======
Hi Alex, and all others,

I did "wonder" why an OD will never "engage" you in conversation about the need to wear the plus (when you can still read the 20/40 line.)

You have made is very clear to me.  You fear the plus, and you fear astigmatism.  Those fears, will certainly stop any and  all ODs and MDs, from EVER be engaged in all preventive work.  (I don not blame them).  Thinks of it this way.   If you wear the plus (when at 20/40), and feel that the plus has INDUCED ASTIGMATISM, you will go sue the hell out of the OD who tried to help you, with "just prevention".

This is why I am very silent about being a critic of any medical person.  I also have never said that the plus is a "cure" for anything. 
This concept I express, is that I wish I had been taught to wear the plus, when I was at 20/40, diving down to 20/200.

But - you never get ANY RESPONSE from any OD about this issue.  They just tell you that , "its all heredity", and no one can ever get out of 20/40.

I think you understand why they will tell you that - in their office.

For me, my statements come from a study by Dr. Francis Young, (plus study).  It showed that if we even START wearing a minus, our refractive STATE goes down at -1/2 diopter per year, for all normal eyes.

For the normal eye - your refractive STATE does not go down.  This indicates the wisdom of accepting long-term plus wearing - as
required.  (But of course you do not like wearing the plus that way - I under stand you very clearly.)

You want an OD or MD to "approve" your wearing of a plus.  You can bet - they will never approve something they
will get sued for - because of our ignorance of science.

I just provide facts, and science.   It is up to you to choose  your course in life.  But if you even start wearing
a minus, do not come back to me, and complain about your stair-case myopia.  I will just say, you had
your chance, and you blew it.

Enjoy,
Title: Re: Astigmatism from print pushing!!!
Post by: Alex_Myopic on August 08, 2016, 01:19:04 PM
"...you will go sue the hell out of the OD who tried to help you, with "just prevention"."

All drugs that doctors prescribe have side effects. Some side effects are even lethal and written within the package, mainly written as very rare. Then why doctors prescribe these drugs and don't afraid of being sued while with plus lenses it is "Alex and others to blame for their fear and suing the doctors"?
Title: Re: Astigmatism from print pushing!!!
Post by: OtisBrown on August 08, 2016, 06:17:21 PM
"...you will go sue the hell out of the OD who tried to help you, with "just prevention"."

All drugs that doctors prescribe have side effects. Some side effects are even lethal and written within the package, mainly written as very rare. Then why doctors prescribe these drugs and don't afraid of being sued while with plus lenses it is "Alex and others to blame for their fear and suing the doctors"?

Hi Alex -
The use of a plus is considered, "OFF LABEL" in that the plus is never intended for "just prevention". 
From my perspective (and a video), I realize that, the plus is not effective - if prescribed as "medicine".
That is where I agree with medical people.

What I find is that some "bright" ODs, have "figured it out", and will tell you nothing.  But - their own children
are "forced" to wear the plus for all close work - because these few ODs know that scientific truth of
this situation.

I do not blame them for "remaining silent".  After all, you can not PROVE, that brushing your teeth,
saves your teeth.
Title: Re: Astigmatism from print pushing!!!
Post by: Alex_Myopic on August 17, 2016, 11:39:11 AM
Hi Mr Brown,
in order to be more clear, I don't believe plus lenses can cause astigmatism. If someone has 20/20 vision and learns how to corectly wear plus lenses he/she can prevent myopia and sometimes the astigmatism accompanied with myopia. But if he is recovering from medium or high myopia then he has to go through diplopia (myopic astigmatism(?)). But even diplopia can be treated while wearing plus. I wore plus all time and now still and had my diplopia almost zeroed, especially after my healing of recurrent corneal erosions.
Title: Re: Astigmatism from print pushing!!!
Post by: OtisBrown on August 17, 2016, 04:53:48 PM
Hi Mr Brown,
in order to be more clear, I don't believe plus lenses can cause astigmatism. If someone has 20/20 vision and learns how to corectly wear plus lenses he/she can prevent myopia and sometimes the astigmatism accompanied with myopia. But if he is recovering from medium or high myopia then he has to go through diplopia (myopic astigmatism(?)). But even diplopia can be treated while wearing plus. I wore plus all time and now still and had my diplopia almost zeroed, especially after my healing of recurrent corneal erosions.

Hi Alex - I agree, the  "plus" does not "cause astigmatism".  But equally we must ask, what does not OD think - in his office.  More seriously, he must UNDERSTAND some of these issues - about keeping after your child to wear the plus for all close work.
Since the OD, (at home) can keep after his child, and KNOWS about that -1/2 diopter / year, he alone can PREVENT for his on child.
This becomes the "myopia silence".  The will never tell you how they can and must help their own child.  Here is a video to review that problem - so that you can understand and respect the OD in his office.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Sjmpg3e420

This is the TRUTH I was looking for. This is why I accept the fact that I must do all prevention myself.  When I was "myopic", I could only DREAM of having naked-eye 20/30 vision.  (And never ever starting with a minus lens.)

That is why I strong recommend doing your own OBJECTIVE checking of your own Snellen. 

Yes - THEY KNOW.  But they KNOW YOU. They know you will never accept the concept of long-term plus wearing -as I do.

I work on the science of prevention.  But you will never get this concept - into an ODs office.  So do not argue with them. Some of them now know the truth of this serious problem.
Title: Re: Astigmatism from print pushing!!!
Post by: Chelsee on August 18, 2016, 05:06:42 PM
Otis, I read that you used the positive lens therapy with both your niece and nephew. You have stated that it did in fact work for your nephew but I heard it did not work for your niece. Why did this therapy not work for your niece?
Title: Re: Astigmatism from print pushing!!!
Post by: infinitesimal on September 25, 2016, 02:49:08 AM
Here's an update from yours truly.

Since doing pulling focus in shopping malls my left eye has improved to -0.5 (last time I posted it was between -0.75 and -1).
My right eye has improved  as much as my left eye but that eye until recently had to contend with (severe) astigmatism, in other words my right eye can see all the way to -0.5 (even -0.25 at times) but the letters are seen in duplicate or triplicate or let's just say whatever crap astigmatism can come up with to spoil the image my right is able to produce.  Not satisfactory at all to say the least. So in a desperate effort to improve my right eye I tried print-pushing on only my right eye again but once more proving that this method worsens the astigmatism... This is not because of using plus lenses - I use plus lenses for near work - but the effort of trying to see beyond the blur horizon with plus lenses. Again I think print-pushing is a tool to combat moderate/high myopia but once your eyes enter the zero to -1 realm it's not that great a tool anymore.

There may be a solution to the astigmatism problem however, I read that looking at clouds or birds fly in the air might reduce astigmatism. So I incorporated this method in my daily pulling focus routine and lo & behold my astigmatism  is finally fading a little. Last night I was able to report that the top lines of the snellen chart for my right eye was almost astigmatism free, which is to state that the astigmatism is not that obvious anymore with the bigger letters. So I have a pretty good feeling that one day my right eye will draw level with my left eye...

I'm not saying this is the holy grail to subdue astigmatism but apparently staring at clouds or watching birds fly works for me.

How are you doing with pulling focus SlightlyMyopic?
Title: Re: Astigmatism from print pushing!!!
Post by: OtisBrown on September 25, 2016, 08:46:52 AM
Otis, I read that you used the positive lens therapy with both your niece and nephew. You have stated that it did in fact work for your nephew but I heard it did not work for your niece. Why did this therapy not work for your niece?

Hi Chelsee -
There were three children.  They all wore a plus.  I only asked that they EXCEED the 20/40 line - if they were interested!
They are now 50 +  years old.  They all pass the DMV - to the best of my knowledge.  To me - that is success.
To you - maybe it is not success?

But what you need to know, is what always happens - if you start wearing a minus lens. 
Briefly - your refraction goes down, down, down, for each year you wear that minus.  It is a rate of -1/2 diotper per year.
So I argue that to "just stay out", means NEVER WEAR A MINUS LENS.

To "never wear a minus", means objectively exceeding the 20/40 line - by self checking. That is what they did.

In the "grand scheme of things", if you always objectively pass the DMV - you are successful.

If you even start wearing a minus - your distant vision is going to be permanently lost.

Title: Re: Astigmatism from print pushing!!!
Post by: infinitesimal on September 25, 2016, 09:56:09 AM
Otis@ distant vision permanently lost because one starts wearing a minus lens???
Title: Re: Astigmatism from print pushing!!!
Post by: OtisBrown on September 26, 2016, 05:59:41 AM
Otis@ distant vision permanently lost because one starts wearing a minus lens???

I think a child's distant vision "starts becoming negative" - when they do this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9NVanfnwjY&t=0s

This subject is FORBIDDEN in optometry.  But should always be discussed.  This is DENIAL of science and fact in optometry,
but proven in science - if you have a scientific mind.  The OD gets this child "in his office", and the child has 20/30.  So
the child gets a -2.5 diopter.  That is why this problem becomes permanent.  It is also why an OD WILL REFUSE TO
DISCUSS THIS ISSUE WITH YOU.    That is why I do not bother with them.

But, I always look at science itself - and expect the parent to understand that if you are prepared to begin
wearing a plus at 20/60, you MIGHT be able to get to objective 20/40. 

Enjoy,