Getting Stronger: Discussion Forum

Discussion Topics => Rehabilitation => Topic started by: johnlink on March 17, 2013, 05:19:59 AM

Title: Online test for astigmatism
Post by: johnlink on March 17, 2013, 05:19:59 AM
Here's a link to an online test for astigmatism: http://www.prokerala.com/health/eye-care/eye-test/astigmatism-test.php
Title: Re: Online test for astigmatism
Post by: johnlink on March 17, 2013, 05:33:14 AM
Are any of you doing any practices to reduce astigmatism per se?

The online test I cited above uses three images, including the one attached. I wonder whether that image might be used in a practice in order to reduce astigmatism. I wonder what would be the effect of viewing the image while slowly rotating it, perhaps while also pushing it to the far point.
Title: Re: Online test for astigmatism
Post by: johnlink on March 17, 2013, 06:36:23 AM
Here's another image used in the test cited above. My right eye has an axis of 10, which I believe is consistent with my observation that lines are darkest when they are rotated clockwise just a little bit (10 degrees) relative to vertical. The two sets of lines appear the same when I rotate the image clockwise a total of 55 degrees. From there, if I then alternate between rotating the image a few degrees clockwise and a few degrees counter-clockwise, the two sets of lines alternate in their appearance of darker and lighter. Perhaps that would be a useful practice to eliminate astigmatism.

So here's the practice for anyone with astigmatism: Rotate the image below until the two sets of lines appear the same. Then alternate between rotating the image a few degrees clockwise and a few degrees counter-clockwise and observe that two sets of lines alternate in their appearance of darker and lighter.
Title: Re: Online test for astigmatism
Post by: PhilippK on March 17, 2013, 06:39:41 AM
Hello John,

After 7 months of not wearing my prescription glasses I have improved my snellen from 20/60 to 20/30 but my -1.75 of astigmatism hasn't changed at all, which makes it impossible for me to see a clear image at any distance, which means I can't push print effectively. I tried the eye exercises for a few months but didn't notice a difference, I am beginning to think astigmatism is permanent.
Title: Re: Online test for astigmatism
Post by: johnlink on March 17, 2013, 06:51:41 AM
Hello John,

After 7 months of not wearing my prescription glasses I have improved my snellen from 20/60 to 20/30 but my -1.75 of astigmatism hasn't changed at all, which makes it impossible for me to see a clear image at any distance, which means I can't push print effectively. I tried the eye exercises for a few months but didn't notice a difference, I am beginning to think astigmatism is permanent.


Welcome to the forum, Philipp, and congratulations on your fabulous success going from 20/60 to 20/30 in just seven months!

Why do you say there is no change in your astigmatism? How have you measured it?

What is the prescription for the glasses you used to wear?

What eye exercises have you been doing?

Have you been regularly pushing print?

I've read several reports of people reducing their astigmatism so I believe it is not permanent. My own astigmatism seems to be less after just a few days using +1.75 glasses over my contacts when working on the computer. I wrote about that in reply #12 of this thread: http://forum.gettingstronger.org/index.php/topic,464.0.html

I encourage you to do the practice I suggested above. Maybe it will help.

Title: Re: Online test for astigmatism
Post by: johnlink on March 17, 2013, 07:00:34 AM
Here's another idea for astigmatism:

Using the same text you would use for print pushing, slowly rotate the page and notice how the vertical and horizontal segments of the letters vary in their darkness.

I think that this practice and and the one I described in a previous post might work because it appears that something is changing (i.e., the darkness of the lines or the darkness of the vertical and horizontal segments of the letters) that the brain knows can't actually be changing. The brain would rather see these objects with no change or at least with less change. If it can figure out a way to do that then the astigmatism will eliminated or reduced.
Title: Re: Online test for astigmatism
Post by: OtisBrown on March 17, 2013, 07:27:21 AM
Hi John,

I know people get, "wraped around the axel" with the word, "Astigmatism".  Certainly you should be concerned. Certainly you should check.  But remember this - all natural and NORMAL eyes have a certain degree of "astigmatism".  That small amount that we all have - will reduce and your refractive STATE moves towards zero.  I check my own refraction, using SPHERICAL lenses - and read 20/20.  Do I have "astigmatism"?  Do I even care?

Nope - I suggest that all those getting better-than 20/40, simply check their refractive state - using low-cost lenses - and just ignore any NORMAL astigmatism.  Thanks for your up-date and chart.


Here's another idea for astigmatism:

Using the same text you would use for print pushing, slowly rotate the page and notice how the vertical and horizontal segments of the letters vary in their darkness.

I think that this practice and and the one I described in a previous post might work because it appears that something is changing (i.e., the darkness of the lines or the darkness of the vertical and horizontal segments of the letters) that the brain knows can't actually be changing. The brain would rather see these objects with no change or at least with less change. If it can figure out a way to do that then the astigmatism will eliminated or reduced.
Title: Re: Online test for astigmatism
Post by: johnlink on March 17, 2013, 07:33:19 AM
Hi John,

I know people get, "wraped around the axel" with the word, "Astigmatism".  Certainly you should be concerned. Certainly you should check.  But remember this - all natural and NORMAL eyes have a certain degree of "astigmatism".  That small amount that we all have - will reduce and your refractive STATE moves towards zero.  I check my own refraction, using SPHERICAL lenses - and read 20/20.  Do I have "astigmatism"?

Please use the online test and report the results. The test will take about a minute of your time.

Quote
Do I even care?

Nope

I think it would make sense for you to care about any astigmatism you might have because it is an imperfection of vision. I suspect you would agree that none is better than some.

Quote
Thanks for your up-date and chart.

You're welcome.
Title: Re: Online test for astigmatism
Post by: PhilippK on March 17, 2013, 07:45:00 AM
My prescription was OD -2.25 x -1.5 x 90, OS -2.25 x -1.75 x 85.
The exercises were rotations and stretching which I still do everyday but don't devote much time to, and I am always pushing print to the point just before the astigmatism makes the text unreadable. Outdoors in sunshine I can wear a +2.5 and read close to 40cm but indoors on the computer it is challenging to read at 50cm naked eye, it would be nice if they made front-lit monitors where you could shine a strong light onto it.
Title: Re: Online test for astigmatism
Post by: OtisBrown on March 17, 2013, 07:49:07 AM
Hi John,
Subject: So much depends on a person's perspective - and how I decided "issues" in my life.
I have NO DESIRE to wear an "astigmatic" lens - when I objectively read 20/20 (or better) on my "home" Snellen.  I have no desired to be "prescribed" an astigmatic lens in an OD's office - because he  might "detect" a slight amount, and judge that I would be "better off" wearing an astigmatic lens - when I have proven naked-eye 20/20.  This is why I don't bother checking for any NORMAL astigmatism I *MIGHT* have.  There is yet another reason.

1) It might be true that ONE eye has SLIGHT astigmatism.  But if it does not prevent 20/20 - why should I be concerned with it? This is indeed a personal judgment of mine  - as long as I protect my distant vision - by wearing a "plus" for near.
2) Even WITH slight astigmatism in ONE or BOTH eyes - it turns out that the BRAIN "levels out" any slight "imperfection" in each eye.  Thus, astigmatism, is simply not a concern - since I have 2020 with both eyes open.
3) The OD measurement is VERY DIFFICULT. Most of  the time they either get it WRONG, or excessive.  I truly don't trust an OD to make this measurement.  It is pure "cosmetic" and NOT NECESSARY AT ALL.  It accomplishes no purpose at all - and NEVER helps my distant vision.

These are my PERSONAL reasons why I prefer 20/20 with no lens.  Even if an astigmatic lens gave me 20/18 - I still would not wear it.  But this is indeed a wise personal choice.  I am not suggesting that you do  - what *I* do.
Title: Re: Online test for astigmatism
Post by: johnlink on March 17, 2013, 07:56:45 AM
Hi John,
Subject: So much depends on a person's perspective - and how I decided "issues" in my life.
I have NO DESIRE to wear an "astigmatic" lens - when I objectively read 20/20 (or better) on my "home" Snellen.  I have no desired to be "prescribed" an astigmatic lens in an OD's office - because he  might "detect" a slight amount, and judge that I would be "better off" wearing an astigmatic lens - when I have proven naked-eye 20/20.  This is why I don't bother checking for any NORMAL astigmatism I *MIGHT* have.  There is yet another reason.

1) It might be true that ONE eye has SLIGHT astigmatism.  But if it does not prevent 20/20 - why should I be concerned with it? This is indeed a personal judgment of mine  - as long as I protect my distant vision - by wearing a "plus" for near.
2) Even WITH slight astigmatism in ONE or BOTH eyes - it turns out that the BRAIN "levels out" any slight "imperfection" in each eye.  Thus, astigmatism, is simply not a concern - since I have 2020 with both eyes open.
3) The OD measurement is VERY DIFFICULT. Most of  the time they either get it WRONG, or excessive.  I truly don't trust an OD to make this measurement.  It is pure "cosmetic" and NOT NECESSARY AT ALL.  It accomplishes no purpose at all - and NEVER helps my distant vision.

These are my PERSONAL reasons why I prefer 20/20 with no lens.  Even if an astigmatic lens gave me 20/18 - I still would not wear it.  But this is indeed a wise personal choice.  I am not suggesting that you do  - what *I* do.


Otis, I am not suggesting you wear a lens to correct any astigmatism, but I am curious whether you have any. Would you please do the online test for which I posted the link?

Title: Re: Online test for astigmatism
Post by: OtisBrown on March 17, 2013, 07:57:00 AM
Hi Phillipp,

Thanks for your commentary.  Long-term near does in fact create BOTH negative status and astigmatism - as you report.  The fact that you can read at 40 cm with a +2.5 diopter lens.  I SUSPECT you are seriously over-prescribed.  If you continue to "work" this issue of "independence" - I suggest you get your own Snellen - and check for 20/60 vision.  

Further - I would "convert" your prescription to "spherical-equivalent" - if you order new glasses.  Just take the -2.25 and 1/2 the astig part.

Thus your OD will be -3.0 spherical, and the OD will be -3.0 diopters also.  (You can ignore the angle part of it.)

I also find that people are CONSISTENTLY over-prescribed by -1.0 to -1.5 diopters.  The fact that you can READ in bright light with a plus-lens - is suggestive of that truth.

Only when you have the personal courage to check your own Snellen - will you find out exactly where you stand.

Otis



My prescription was OD -2.25 x -1.5 x 90, OS -2.25 x -1.75 x 85.
The exercises were rotations and stretching which I still do everyday but don't devote much time to, and I am always pushing print to the point just before the astigmatism makes the text unreadable. Outdoors in sunshine I can wear a +2.5 and read close to 40cm but indoors on the computer it is challenging to read at 50cm naked eye, it would be nice if they made front-lit monitors where you could shine a strong light onto it.
Title: Re: Online test for astigmatism
Post by: johnlink on March 17, 2013, 07:57:48 AM
My prescription was OD -2.25 x -1.5 x 90, OS -2.25 x -1.75 x 85.
The exercises were rotations and stretching which I still do everyday but don't devote much time to, and I am always pushing print to the point just before the astigmatism makes the text unreadable. Outdoors in sunshine I can wear a +2.5 and read close to 40cm but indoors on the computer it is challenging to read at 50cm naked eye, it would be nice if they made front-lit monitors where you could shine a strong light onto it.

What is the distance to your monitor? What is the distance at which you would be able to read it without it feeling like a challenge?

I'm still curious about this: Why do you say there is no change in your astigmatism? How have you measured it?
Title: Re: Online test for astigmatism
Post by: johnlink on March 17, 2013, 07:59:59 AM
Otis, to paraphrase someone in this forum, only when you have the personal courage to check your own astigmatism - will you find out exactly where you stand.
Title: Re: Online test for astigmatism
Post by: OtisBrown on March 17, 2013, 08:01:09 AM
Hi John,

I have no interest in "astigmatism" - since I have 20/20.

John>  Otis, I am not suggesting you wear a lens to correct any astigmatism, but I am curious whether you have any. Would you please do the online test for which I posted the link

Otis> I have look at these charts before.  The are meaningless - in my opinion.  If I did do a CHECK - that I WOULD CONSIDER, I would use the OFFICIAL "Jackson Cross Cylinder" - which is the ONLY RIGHT WAY.

Otis> At this time - I do not have that instrument - but I will publish a YouTube on how to use it - if YOU WISH TO BE ACCURATE AND UNDERSTANDING OF HOW TO DO IT.

Title: Re: Online test for astigmatism
Post by: johnlink on March 17, 2013, 08:09:51 AM
Hi John,

I have no interest in "astigmatism" - since I have 20/20.

John>  Otis, I am not suggesting you wear a lens to correct any astigmatism, but I am curious whether you have any. Would you please do the online test for which I posted the link

Otis> I have look at these charts before.  The are meaningless - in my opinion.  If I did do a CHECK - that I WOULD CONSIDER, I would use the OFFICIAL "Jackson Cross Cylinder" - which is the ONLY RIGHT WAY.

Otis> At this time - I do not have that instrument - but I will publish a YouTube on how to use it - if YOU WISH TO BE ACCURATE AND UNDERSTANDING OF HOW TO DO IT.


Otis, I look forward to reading your report of your test done with a Jackson Cross Cylinder and watching your video of how to perform the test. In the meantime would you please tell us, for each of your eyes, whether all the lines in the attached image appear to have the same darkness? It's a simple yes or no. Remember, only when you have the personal courage to check your own astigmatism - will you find out exactly where you stand.
Title: Re: Online test for astigmatism
Post by: OtisBrown on March 17, 2013, 09:15:46 AM
Hi John,

Here is the very cumberson and difficult "astigmatic test" - for your interest:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yB90F8zrow

I truly believe that if you took the SAME person to 10 different optometrists - you would get 10 DIFFERENT measurements for "Astigmatism".  But if you WISH to get an accurate measurement - then this is the ONLY way you can do it.

I have also examined your chart.  I see no "doubled" lines, or anything like that.

Our conversations do serve an excellent purpose.  If we were EVER to conduct a prevention study (from 20/60) for pilots - I am CERTAIN they would be asking your type of questions. 

Also - I will post the FAA requirements for astigmatism - in due course.  Thanks for your commentary - it is of value!

Hi John,

I have no interest in "astigmatism" - since I have 20/20.

John>  Otis, I am not suggesting you wear a lens to correct any astigmatism, but I am curious whether you have any. Would you please do the online test for which I posted the link

Otis> I have look at these charts before.  The are meaningless - in my opinion.  If I did do a CHECK - that I WOULD CONSIDER, I would use the OFFICIAL "Jackson Cross Cylinder" - which is the ONLY RIGHT WAY.

Otis> At this time - I do not have that instrument - but I will publish a YouTube on how to use it - if YOU WISH TO BE ACCURATE AND UNDERSTANDING OF HOW TO DO IT.


Otis, I look forward to reading your report of your test done with a Jackson Cross Cylinder and watching your video of how to perform the test. In the meantime would you please tell us, for each of your eyes, whether all the lines in the attached image appear to have the same darkness? It's a simple yes or no. Remember, only when you have the personal courage to check your own astigmatism - will you find out exactly where you stand.
Title: Re: Online test for astigmatism
Post by: PhilippK on March 17, 2013, 09:17:15 AM
Hi Phillipp,

Thanks for your commentary.  Long-term near does in fact create BOTH negative status and astigmatism - as you report.  The fact that you can read at 40 cm with a +2.5 diopter lens.  I SUSPECT you are seriously over-prescribed.  If you continue to "work" this issue of "independence" - I suggest you get your own Snellen - and check for 20/60 vision.  

Further - I would "convert" your prescription to "spherical-equivalent" - if you order new glasses.  Just take the -2.25 and 1/2 the astig part.

Thus your OD will be -3.0 spherical, and the OD will be -3.0 diopters also.  (You can ignore the angle part of it.)

I also find that people are CONSISTENTLY over-prescribed by -1.0 to -1.5 diopters.  The fact that you can READ in bright light with a plus-lens - is suggestive of that truth.

Only when you have the personal courage to check your own Snellen - will you find out exactly where you stand.

Otis

Hi Otis

I find it painful to wear any amount of minus since I went cold turkey 7 months ago. I just checked my snellen outside after a few light blinks I can read all the letters on the 32ft line, although the letter V was really hard to recognize at first.
Dr. Colgate recommended to correct astigmatism, I wonder if should use a plus with undercorrected cyl while at the computer, or just continue naked eye?



What is the distance to your monitor? What is the distance at which you would be able to read it without it feeling like a challenge?

I'm still curious about this: Why do you say there is no change in your astigmatism? How have you measured it?

At 50cm from the monitor I can see clear enough to read , it doesn't get any clearer as I move in. Anything that isn't completely horizontal is always out of focus.
Title: Re: Online test for astigmatism
Post by: OtisBrown on March 17, 2013, 09:26:03 AM
Hi Phillipp,
I know we EACH have our own private judgments about all these issues, about wearing a minus, about getting a "correction" for "astigmatism".  That is just perfectly normal.  I am personal friends with Dr. Stirling Colgate - and I don't recall him ever expressing an opinion on "astigmatism".  He use a plus on himself - and got back to 20/20.  Perhaps this is a different "Dr. Colgate".

Phillipp> Dr. Colgate recommended to correct astigmatism, I wonder if should use a plus with undercorrected cyl while at the computer, or just continue naked eye

Otis> This, of course must be your own judgment.  The fact that you can read the 32 foot line is excellent.  I would recommend you use the standard Snellen, and report you vision as 20/50, 20/40, 20/30 - just so we are taking about the same thing.

Otis> I work to the FAA standard - that only requires that I read the 20/20 line - and if I do that - there is no mention of astigmatism.  If a person feels more "comfortable" wearing a strong astigmatic lens - I have no objection to doing that - at all.


Hi Phillipp,

Thanks for your commentary.  Long-term near does in fact create BOTH negative status and astigmatism - as you report.  The fact that you can read at 40 cm with a +2.5 diopter lens.  I SUSPECT you are seriously over-prescribed.  If you continue to "work" this issue of "independence" - I suggest you get your own Snellen - and check for 20/60 vision.  

Further - I would "convert" your prescription to "spherical-equivalent" - if you order new glasses.  Just take the -2.25 and 1/2 the astig part.

Thus your OD will be -3.0 spherical, and the OD will be -3.0 diopters also.  (You can ignore the angle part of it.)

I also find that people are CONSISTENTLY over-prescribed by -1.0 to -1.5 diopters.  The fact that you can READ in bright light with a plus-lens - is suggestive of that truth.

Only when you have the personal courage to check your own Snellen - will you find out exactly where you stand.

Otis

Hi Otis

I find it painful to wear any amount of minus since I went cold turkey 7 months ago. I just checked my snellen outside after a few light blinks I can read all the letters on the 32ft line, although the letter V was really hard to recognize at first.
Dr. Colgate recommended to correct astigmatism, I wonder if should use a plus with undercorrected cyl while at the computer, or just continue naked eye?



What is the distance to your monitor? What is the distance at which you would be able to read it without it feeling like a challenge?

I'm still curious about this: Why do you say there is no change in your astigmatism? How have you measured it?

At 50cm from the monitor I can see clear enough to read , it doesn't get any clearer as I move in. Anything that isn't completely horizontal is always out of focus.
Title: Re: Online test for astigmatism
Post by: PhilippK on March 17, 2013, 09:27:13 AM
My prescription was OD -2.25 x -1.5 x 90, OS -2.25 x -1.75 x 85.
The exercises were rotations and stretching which I still do everyday but don't devote much time to, and I am always pushing print to the point just before the astigmatism makes the text unreadable. Outdoors in sunshine I can wear a +2.5 and read close to 40cm but indoors on the computer it is challenging to read at 50cm naked eye, it would be nice if they made front-lit monitors where you could shine a strong light onto it.

What is the distance to your monitor? What is the distance at which you would be able to read it without it feeling like a challenge?

I'm still curious about this: Why do you say there is no change in your astigmatism? How have you measured it?

I haven't had any recent OD exams so maybe it has reduced slightly, it is just very annoying having two competing focuses in the same eye.
If anybody has eliminated their astigmatism from over -1 diopter I would love to hear how they did it.
Title: Re: Online test for astigmatism
Post by: johnlink on March 17, 2013, 09:27:44 AM

I find it painful to wear any amount of minus since I went cold turkey 7 months ago. I just checked my snellen outside after a few light blinks I can read all the letters on the 32ft line, although the letter V was really hard to recognize at first.
Dr. Colgate recommended to correct astigmatism, I wonder if should use a plus with undercorrected cyl while at the computer, or just continue naked eye?

That sounds like a worthwhile idea to try. If you wore glasses that slightly under-corrected the astigmatism your print pushing might become more effective, reducing both the myopia and the astigmatism. You could get a pair of inexpensive glasses without an official prescription here: www.zennioptical.com

Quote
At 50cm from the monitor I can see clear enough to read , it doesn't get any clearer as I move in. Anything that isn't completely horizontal is always out of focus.

That's consistent with your axes of 90 and 85.
Title: Re: Online test for astigmatism
Post by: johnlink on March 17, 2013, 09:36:19 AM
I haven't had any recent OD exams so maybe it has reduced slightly, it is just very annoying having two competing focuses in the same eye.

I can imagine that it would be. Only my right eye is astigmatic so when I use both eyes naked the astigmatism is not so noticeable, but if both eyes were astigmatic I think it would be quite annoying.
Title: Re: Online test for astigmatism
Post by: PhilippK on March 17, 2013, 09:37:05 AM
Otis,

Yes it is the same Dr. Stirling Colgate, here is a passage from "Dr. Colgate to 20/20" document on your older Myopiafree website

"           OTHER CAVEATS

     There is, of course, a continuing need to see an
ophthalmologists to check for all the other actual malfunctions of
the eye.  Fortunately, most of these are rare but they do happen.
One that is not quite so rare is astigmatism, perhaps 10% or
greater of the population.  Since, in the case of astigmatism,
there is no unique focus, the ciliary muscle is constantly hunting
for something that cannot be satisfied with the result that myopia
occurs even without a near point stress.  In this case you need to
correct the astigmatism, but also make sure that you have a
positive astigmatic correcting lens for near point work."
Title: Re: Online test for astigmatism
Post by: OtisBrown on March 17, 2013, 09:41:41 AM
Hi Phillpp,
Subject:  I am very independent - in what I do and what I judge.
Regarding:  My own personal measurements of my refractive STATE (and astigmatism - if necessary.

I make all my own measurements.  The FAA has no astigmatic requirement - only that I read the 20/20 line. For that reason, I have no reason to measure astigmatism - at all.

I also find (in many ways) that we are over-prescribed.  You have a -3.0 diopter PRESCRIPTION.  Yet you can read with a plus on.  The -3 diopter prescription suggest that you can't see ANYTHING beyond 13 inches. Yes you are close to reading the 20/40 line - or better.  I would bet - if you checked - you would find out that you CAN read that line.  As a favor to me - could you check by using this chart.  Just "click" here:

http://www.smbs.buffalo.edu/oph/ped/IVAC/IVAC.html

And then on the word "Display" several times. The 20/60 line will come up.  Then back-off to 20 feet, and see if you can read the letters.  Get your friend to press "Display" for you.  See you can read 1/2 the letters correctly.  This will be a START for you.  Let us know!  I always like an "independent" person.

My prescription was OD -2.25 x -1.5 x 90, OS -2.25 x -1.75 x 85.
The exercises were rotations and stretching which I still do everyday but don't devote much time to, and I am always pushing print to the point just before the astigmatism makes the text unreadable. Outdoors in sunshine I can wear a +2.5 and read close to 40cm but indoors on the computer it is challenging to read at 50cm naked eye, it would be nice if they made front-lit monitors where you could shine a strong light onto it.

What is the distance to your monitor? What is the distance at which you would be able to read it without it feeling like a challenge?

I'm still curious about this: Why do you say there is no change in your astigmatism? How have you measured it?

I haven't had any recent OD exams so maybe it has reduced slightly, it is just very annoying having two competing focuses in the same eye.
If anybody has eliminated their astigmatism from over -1 diopter I would love to hear how they did it.
Title: Re: Online test for astigmatism
Post by: johnlink on March 17, 2013, 09:43:55 AM
Otis,

Yes it is the same Dr. Stirling Colgate, here is a passage from "Dr. Colgate to 20/20" document on your older Myopiafree website

"           OTHER CAVEATS

     There is, of course, a continuing need to see an
ophthalmologists to check for all the other actual malfunctions of
the eye.  Fortunately, most of these are rare but they do happen.
One that is not quite so rare is astigmatism, perhaps 10% or
greater of the population.  Since, in the case of astigmatism,
there is no unique focus, the ciliary muscle is constantly hunting
for something that cannot be satisfied with the result that myopia
occurs even without a near point stress.  In this case you need to
correct the astigmatism, but also make sure that you have a
positive astigmatic correcting lens for near point work."

Using glasses to under-correct the astigmatism would be an application of Todd's idea that a little bit of blur, but not too much, is most effective for improvement. Philipp, I encourage you to give try it and let us know what happens!
Title: Re: Online test for astigmatism
Post by: OtisBrown on March 17, 2013, 09:49:16 AM
Hi Phillipp,

Subject: I must draw a line - to determine if *I* am in control of my vision - or some OD is.

I love MDs and ODs. But they truly can not help me with these measurements.  I know it takes a very "independent" mind and person to truly do them.  I know that Stirling did not "bother" doing this - it was just so obvious to Stir that he HAD to wear the plus - that these "checks" were  not necessary for him.  But I find it VERY EXPENSIVE to go to an OD, and they don't have "time" for me - when I can and MUST do a better job myself.  Using two simple lenses, a -1 and a -1/2, I get accurate measurements.  Here is an example of how I do it - for your interest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrfuLuibclY
Title: Re: Online test for astigmatism
Post by: johnlink on March 17, 2013, 09:55:10 AM
Hi Phillipp,

Subject: I must draw a line - to determine if *I* am in control of my vision - or some OD is.

I love MDs and ODs. But they truly can not help me with these measurements.  I know it takes a very "independent" mind and person to truly do them.  I know that Stirling did not "bother" doing this - it was just so obvious to Stir that he HAD to wear the plus - that these "checks" were  not necessary for him.  But I find it VERY EXPENSIVE to go to an OD, and they don't have "time" for me - when I can and MUST do a better job myself.  Using two simple lenses, a -1 and a -1/2, I get accurate measurements.  Here is an example of how I do it - for your interest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrfuLuibclY

Otis, while your video is interesting this thread is about astigmatism, so your post seems to be off topic. Besides, I believe Philipp already said that he is making his own measurements.
Title: Re: Online test for astigmatism
Post by: OtisBrown on March 17, 2013, 10:02:34 AM
Hi Phillipp and John,
Subject: This thread is about how to make ASTIGMATIC MEASUREMENTS YOURSELF.
In that sense - you can not AVOID making BOTH these measurements yourself.  If I could do it - I would supply Phillipp with the required Cross Cylinder, and have him (and you) prescribed a cross-cylinder yourself.

Here is another video on how do exactly that. Please note that I DO NOT CONSIDER THIS A MEDICAL SUBJECT, AND THAT TAKING PERSONAL CONTROL OF THESE TWO MEASUREMENTS - IS NOT A MEDICAL SUBJECT.  But I do expect considerable expertise and responsibility to do it right - FOR MYSELF.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArtfTp72v64

John - as I mentioned - I would like to conduct an Engineering-Scientific study of true-prevention for pilots who ABSOLUTLY HAD TO GET TO NAKED EYE 20/20. I would consider this self-measurement (for knowledge) to be part of that study.

If you give the person the POWER TO MAKE THE MEASUREMENT - YOU REMOVE FROM THE PERSON - THE FEAR OF THE MEASURMENT. That is my philosophy in pure science.
Title: Re: Online test for astigmatism
Post by: johnlink on March 17, 2013, 10:03:36 AM
I'm planning to do the practice I described in http://forum.gettingstronger.org/index.php/topic,468.msg3987.html#msg3987 with just my astigmatic right eye and also with both eyes simultaneously. Perhaps the left eye can help the right eye get rid of its astigmatism.
Title: Re: Online test for astigmatism
Post by: johnlink on March 17, 2013, 10:04:45 AM
If you give the person the POWER TO MAKE THE MEASUREMENT - YOU REMOVE FROM THE PERSON - THE FEAR OF THE MEASURMENT. That is my philosophy in pure science.

I agree.
Title: Re: Online test for astigmatism
Post by: OtisBrown on March 17, 2013, 10:16:56 AM
Hi John and Phillipp,

I agree that in principle - this should be a separate thread.  But we will always get into these conversations "backward".

What concerns me with Philip (not a criticism) is that he has a "spherical equivalent" of -3.0 diopters (or a focal length of 13 inches, or 33 cm - which indicated he should have 20/200 vision or worse), and yet he seems to be able to read most of the letters on the 20/60 line.  That means to me, that he is grossly over-prescribed.  That is why I "convert" to "spherical equivalent" for the comparison.  If he does read the 20/60 line (he said he can read the 32 foot line) then he is indeed over-prescribed.  The fact that he can read ANYTHING through a plus lens - again proves he is over prescribed.  If he was a TRUE -3.0 diopter myope - he  could see nothing at 20 inches through a plus lens.  Because of the gross errors in measurements - that I include a video on how to CHECK AT HOME.  Phillipp has not posted on other threads - so he may as well learn to check 20/60  here.

As always - I enjoy these conversations - but agree that it take intense long-term motivation to get your Snellen to clear from 20/50 to 20/20.  Most people "fade" after a week or two.  Only the most self-motivated will STICK with reading their Snellen - to get it clear under their PERSONAL control - in my opinion.  I just show HOW to do it - if the person is interested.


If you give the person the POWER TO MAKE THE MEASUREMENT - YOU REMOVE FROM THE PERSON - THE FEAR OF THE MEASURMENT. That is my philosophy in pure science.

I agree.
Title: Re: Online test for astigmatism
Post by: johnlink on March 17, 2013, 10:23:58 AM
What concerns me with Philip (not a criticism) is that he has a "spherical equivalent" of -3.0 diopters (or a focal length of 13 inches, or 33 cm - which indicated he should have 20/200 vision or worse), and yet he seems to be able to read most of the letters on the 20/60 line.

Otis, the anomaly you observe is resolved by noting that in his first post on this forum Philipp wrote that he has gone from 20/60 to 20/30 and that he is no longer wearing the glasses with a spherical equivalent of -3 D. Have a look:

Hello John,

After 7 months of not wearing my prescription glasses I have improved my snellen from 20/60 to 20/30 but my -1.75 of astigmatism hasn't changed at all, which makes it impossible for me to see a clear image at any distance, which means I can't push print effectively. I tried the eye exercises for a few months but didn't notice a difference, I am beginning to think astigmatism is permanent.


But of course -3D would be quite an over-correction for someone with 20/60 vision.
Title: Re: Online test for astigmatism
Post by: PhilippK on March 17, 2013, 10:31:47 AM
Hi Otis,

I just printed a standard snellen from i-see and in sunlight I was able read every letter on the 20/25 line with a couple of light blinks, it wasn't crystal clear but I saw it. It looks like I am making more progress than I realize, do you think too much convergence is the main culprit for astigmatism?
Title: Re: Online test for astigmatism
Post by: johnlink on March 17, 2013, 10:35:01 AM
I just printed a standard snellen from i-see and in sunlight I was able read every letter on the 20/25 line with a couple of light blinks, it wasn't crystal clear but I saw it. It looks like I am making more progress than I realize

Congratulations!

Quote
do you think too much convergence is the main culprit for astigmatism?

Why do you think that might be the case?
Title: Re: Online test for astigmatism
Post by: PhilippK on March 17, 2013, 10:52:55 AM
Quote
Why do you think that might be the case?

John,

If I look out with just my right eye objects bleed out to the right and objects bleed to the left with just using my left eye, so its the inner portion of my eyes closest to my nose that give a less distorted image. I don't know just thought that may have something to do with converging too much.
Title: Re: Online test for astigmatism
Post by: johnlink on March 17, 2013, 10:59:10 AM
If I look out with just my right eye objects bleed out to the right and objects bleed to the left with just using my left eye, so its the inner portion of my eyes closest to my nose that give a less distorted image. I don't know just thought that may have something to do with converging too much.

Have you discussed that with your OD? I don't experience anything like that, nor have I ever heard of it. I wonder whether you might have some sort of irregularity not fully described by astigmatism.
Title: Re: Online test for astigmatism
Post by: OtisBrown on March 17, 2013, 11:13:44 AM
Hi Phillipp,

Subject: I believe we should be EMPOWERED to make all critical measurement - personally.

Regarding:  Meeting the objective REQUIREMENTS for flight - from the FAA.

My strong desire it to avoid wearing a minus lens.  To achieve that goal - I must exceed the FAA 3rd and FAA 1st REQUIRMENTS - OBJECTIVELY.

The FAA 3rd is for 20/40 in both eyes.  Thus I MUST make this measurement myself - just to be safe.  You are exceeding the FAA requirement.  It is your option if you wish to wear that -3.0 diopter lens all the time - or no lens at all.  You will EXCEED the DMV requirement - since you have 20/25 vision.  If you have not yet done so - I would go down (at your convenience) as pass their test - if you wish.

If you wish further Snellen clearing, then I would just continue wearing that plus lens for the close-work you are now doing.  Todd did it, and it is very reasonable that you verify your vision yourself - as I do it.

But you might find it interesting (and wise) to order your own -1.0 diopter lens from Zennioptical.com - just to see how that "improves" your Snellen.  I am a practical engineer. It would be a good check for you.  I suspect you could read the 20/18 line THROUGH a -1.0 diopter lens.  In fact, you could wear that "minus" at night - if you wish.  But you now know where you stand.  I believe in intelligent self-checking - and that is how *I* would do it.

Hi Otis,

I just printed a standard snellen from i-see and in sunlight I was able read every letter on the 20/25 line with a couple of light blinks, it wasn't crystal clear but I saw it. It looks like I am making more progress than I realize, do you think too much convergence is the main culprit for astigmatism?
Title: Re: Online test for astigmatism
Post by: PhilippK on March 17, 2013, 11:24:24 AM
If I look out with just my right eye objects bleed out to the right and objects bleed to the left with just using my left eye, so its the inner portion of my eyes closest to my nose that give a less distorted image. I don't know just thought that may have something to do with converging too much.

Have you discussed that with your OD? I don't experience anything like that, nor have I ever heard of it. I wonder whether you might have some sort of irregularity not fully described by astigmatism.

I should have used the word blurred instead of bleed, it not extreme as I may have made it sound, but if i look at the blue lit circle around my monitors power button with just my left eye the left side of the circle appears SLIGHTLY more blurred than the right side of the circle and vice versa with the other eye. When I fuse the circle with both eyes the blur or bloom is less noticeable all around.
Title: Re: Online test for astigmatism
Post by: johnlink on March 17, 2013, 11:28:42 AM
I should have used the word blurred instead of bleed, it not extreme as I may have made it sound, but if i look at the blue lit circle around my monitors power button with just my left eye the left side of the circle appears SLIGHTLY more blurred than the right side of the circle and vice versa with the other eye. When I fuse the circle with both eyes the blur or bloom is less noticeable all around.

Have you discussed this with your OD?
Title: Re: Online test for astigmatism
Post by: OtisBrown on March 17, 2013, 11:40:45 AM
Hi Phillipp,

Subject: I used you as  an example of severe -3.0 diopter over-prescription.

When I state that many people are over-prescribed - no one believes me.  The fact that you have a "spherical" minus of 3 diopters - and have managed to clear the 20/25 line - tells me that a "mix" of a bad astigmatism measurements and an over prescription minus created your -3 diopter prescription.

This is why I ask a person who wants to become a pilot - to do this Snellen checking.  You probably do have a slight degree of astigmatism - but you can do everything you wish with no lens for distant vision.  That is MY GOAL.  I don't mind doing close-work by reading through a plus.  But I hate being DEPENDENT on a minus for distant vision - and will do everything I can to make certain I exceed the required DMV line.

I wish I could give you a "Jackson cross cylinder" test frame.  I think you would find your astigmatism is must less that you might imagine.  But that would be for future study and analysis.  For now, I am very pleased you are at 20/25 - far about the required 20/40 line for driving a car.

 CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR OBVIOUS SUCCESS WITH THE PLUS FOR NEAR!!


Hi Otis,

I just printed a standard snellen from i-see and in sunlight I was able read every letter on the 20/25 line with a couple of light blinks, it wasn't crystal clear but I saw it. It looks like I am making more progress than I realize, do you think too much convergence is the main culprit for astigmatism?
Title: Re: Online test for astigmatism
Post by: PhilippK on March 17, 2013, 11:46:11 AM
Hi Phillipp,

Subject: I believe we should be EMPOWERED to make all critical measurement - personally.

Regarding:  Meeting the objective REQUIREMENTS for flight - from the FAA.

My strong desire it to avoid wearing a minus lens.  To achieve that goal - I must exceed the FAA 3rd and FAA 1st REQUIRMENTS - OBJECTIVELY.

The FAA 3rd is for 20/40 in both eyes.  Thus I MUST make this measurement myself - just to be safe.  You are exceeding the FAA requirement.  It is your option if you wish to wear that -3.0 diopter lens all the time - or no lens at all.  You will EXCEED the DMV requirement - since you have 20/25 vision.  If you have not yet done so - I would go down (at your convenience) as pass their test - if you wish.

If you wish further Snellen clearing, then I would just continue wearing that plus lens for the close-work you are now doing.  Todd did it, and it is very reasonable that you verify your vision yourself - as I do it.

But you might find it interesting (and wise) to order your own -1.0 diopter lens from Zennioptical.com - just to see how that "improves" your Snellen.  I am a practical engineer. It would be a good check for you.  I suspect you could read the 20/18 line THROUGH a -1.0 diopter lens.  In fact, you could wear that "minus" at night - if you wish.  But you now know where you stand.  I believe in intelligent self-checking - and that is how *I* would do it.

Hi Otis,

I just printed a standard snellen from i-see and in sunlight I was able read every letter on the 20/25 line with a couple of light blinks, it wasn't crystal clear but I saw it. It looks like I am making more progress than I realize, do you think too much convergence is the main culprit for astigmatism?

I just checked with a -1.25 spherical and I can see no more than 20/20 beyond that the letters are too small and jumbled.
Title: Re: Online test for astigmatism
Post by: PhilippK on March 17, 2013, 11:52:53 AM
I should have used the word blurred instead of bleed, it not extreme as I may have made it sound, but if i look at the blue lit circle around my monitors power button with just my left eye the left side of the circle appears SLIGHTLY more blurred than the right side of the circle and vice versa with the other eye. When I fuse the circle with both eyes the blur or bloom is less noticeable all around.

Have you discussed this with your OD?

No I haven't. I'm certain it is astigmatism because like Otis said it cancels out the effect when both eyes are fusing or in my case reduces it.
Title: Re: Online test for astigmatism
Post by: johnlink on March 20, 2013, 05:40:04 AM
Last night I noticed that if I view the image in http://forum.gettingstronger.org/index.php/topic,468.msg3987.html#msg3987 with my naked right (astigmatic) eye at arm's length, the vertical lines are darkest, but if I bring the image about 6 inches from my eye the vertical and horizontal lines are of equal darkness. Closer than 6 inches the horizontal lines are darkest.

If you have astigmatism, would you find out whether something similar happens to you? Before you start experimenting with the distance at which you view the image please turn the image to coincide with your axis. For example, my axis is 10 and so lines are darkest when they are 10 degrees clockwise from vertical, so I turned the image 10 degrees clockwise.

Alternatively you could view the image in http://forum.gettingstronger.org/index.php/topic,468.msg3986.html#msg3986 and notice which lines are darkest as you change the viewing distance.
Title: Re: Online test for astigmatism
Post by: johnlink on March 20, 2013, 06:10:37 AM
Hello John,

After 7 months of not wearing my prescription glasses I have improved my snellen from 20/60 to 20/30 but my -1.75 of astigmatism hasn't changed at all, which makes it impossible for me to see a clear image at any distance, which means I can't push print effectively. I tried the eye exercises for a few months but didn't notice a difference, I am beginning to think astigmatism is permanent.


Philipp, I'm curious if there might be a distance at which your astigmatism disappears. There is for me, as I report in this message: http://forum.gettingstronger.org/index.php/topic,468.msg4066.html#msg4066 I suspect there is such a distance for everyone with astigmatism, although I don't yet have a theoretical explanation. It might be a useful practice to push print from one side of that distance to another, observing how the darkness of the lines varies when crossing the boundary. The brain knows that the lines ought to appear the same on both sides of the boundary even though they don't appear that way, which could be an incentive for the brain to reshape the eye. I'm going to add this practice to my program.
Title: Re: Online test for astigmatism
Post by: PhilippK on March 20, 2013, 06:29:19 AM
Hello John,

After 7 months of not wearing my prescription glasses I have improved my snellen from 20/60 to 20/30 but my -1.75 of astigmatism hasn't changed at all, which makes it impossible for me to see a clear image at any distance, which means I can't push print effectively. I tried the eye exercises for a few months but didn't notice a difference, I am beginning to think astigmatism is permanent.


Philipp, I'm curious if there might be a distance at which your astigmatism disappears. There is for me, as I report in this message: http://forum.gettingstronger.org/index.php/topic,468.msg4066.html#msg4066 I suspect there is such a distance for everyone with astigmatism, although I don't yet have a theoretical explanation. It might be a useful practice to push print from one side of that distance to another, observing how the darkness of the lines varies when crossing the boundary. The brain knows that the lines ought to appear the same on both sides of the boundary even though they don't appear that way, which could be an incentive for the brain to reshape the eye. I'm going to add this practice to my program.

Hi John,

Yes the vertical lines are close to equally black at about 22cm away, so that would mean that axis is -4.5 diopters. I have tried pushing print that way but it seems that would induce strain in the stronger axis.
Title: Re: Online test for astigmatism
Post by: johnlink on March 20, 2013, 06:35:53 AM

Yes the vertical lines are close to equally black at about 22cm away, so that would mean that axis is -4.5 diopters. I have tried pushing print that way but it seems that would induce strain in the stronger axis.


I think I didn't make my question clear, so I'll ask again. Is there a distance at which the vertical and horizontal lines of the image in http://forum.gettingstronger.org/index.php/topic,468.msg3987.html#msg3987 appear with the same darkness? For me that distance is about 6 inches.
Title: Re: Online test for astigmatism
Post by: PhilippK on March 20, 2013, 06:53:41 AM

Yes the vertical lines are close to equally black at about 22cm away, so that would mean that axis is -4.5 diopters. I have tried pushing print that way but it seems that would induce strain in the stronger axis.


I think I didn't make my question clear, so I'll ask again. Is there a distance at which the vertical and horizontal lines of the image in http://forum.gettingstronger.org/index.php/topic,468.msg3987.html#msg3987 appear with the same darkness? For me that distance is about 6 inches.

Your question was perfectly clear and I answered it 22cm or close to 9 inches is the distance that both lines are equally black. When I zoom out the vertical lines start getting thinner and grey.
Title: Re: Online test for astigmatism
Post by: johnlink on March 20, 2013, 07:03:50 AM

Your question was perfectly clear and I answered it 22cm or close to 9 inches is the distance that both lines are equally black. When I zoom out the vertical lines start getting thinner and grey.


When you zoom out do the horizontal lines get thicker and darker? When you zoom in from 22 cm do the horizontal lines get thinner and grey and the vertical lines thicker and darker?
Title: Re: Online test for astigmatism
Post by: PhilippK on March 20, 2013, 07:24:31 AM

Your question was perfectly clear and I answered it 22cm or close to 9 inches is the distance that both lines are equally black. When I zoom out the vertical lines start getting thinner and grey.


When you zoom out do the horizontal lines get thicker and darker? When you zoom in from 22 cm do the horizontal lines get thinner and grey and the vertical lines thicker and darker?

At about 12cm the horizontal lines start to lose focus and get thinner and grey while the vertical is in complete focus. Zooming out from 22cm doesn't make the horizontal lines any thicker or darker.
Title: Re: Online test for astigmatism
Post by: johnlink on April 15, 2013, 05:17:00 AM

Hi John,

You ask me, "... exactly how I stand" on astigmatism.


I never asked you any such thing.