Getting Stronger: Discussion Forum

Discussion Topics => Rehabilitation => Topic started by: OtisBrown on December 25, 2013, 04:41:40 AM

Title: YOU are the Optometrist!
Post by: OtisBrown on December 25, 2013, 04:41:40 AM
What would YOU do?  What would YOU say?  Or is this problem impossible for an optometrist?

I know we have many pleasant conversations about prevention, centering on doing exercise to restore our distant vision.

But let us assume that you are the optometrist - in an office - with a large number of people entering, with various degrees of "myopia".  You have a minus lens, and that works on all people.  Yet you suspect that the minus is not that 'great', and probably makes matters worse - in the long-run.

I am curious about what you might say to a person, or his parents, when the child is measured as -1.5 diopters and 20/50.  That can be very helpful - to understand why prevention is so very difficult for an optometrist.  Would you emphasize scientific education - to help them? What if they did not succeed?

How can optometrists change themselves - to help YOU get back to normal?

What would you do - if you are in that position?
Title: Re: YOU are the Optometrist!
Post by: CapitalPrince on December 25, 2013, 05:49:40 AM
In this situation if i were the optometrist i would suggest prescribing 2 glasses. one for reading and one for distance, and tell the patient to use the minus when absolutely necessary. The distance glasses should be a underpresciption that do not give the child headaches. bifocals maybe another choice if the child is okay with the appearance of it. if the child agrees upon using a pllus lens for close work i might also give a brief talk about taking good care of the eyes and the importance of not getting too deep into myopia
Title: Re: YOU are the Optometrist!
Post by: OtisBrown on December 25, 2013, 07:16:12 AM
Hi Sam,
The reason I asked this question, is partly due to Obama-care.  That health-law REQUIRES that you be offered, "Prevention", or a "Preventive Service".  The OD would be paid by your insurance, but the all prevention would be FREE.

The issue is this - I do not know of ANY optometrist who will even SUGGEST prevention.  I also do not know of any optometrist who is trained to talk to you about true prevention.  This is why Dr. Bates and his study are so necessary.  He was "scoffed at", with the idea that no one in his right mind would either "accept" prevention as a goal for medicine, or that any would use it - intelligently.

Sam, I think optometrists should do what you suggested. 

An OD degree costs
1) Four years of college, then
2) Four year of optometry, for about $100,000. 

Yet with all that educational expense - there is NOT ONE SINGLE COURSE on how to help a patient with a strictly preventive service.  Why is that the truth, and what can we do to change that mind-set?  In my mind this is a "black hole" in optometry education.

Is what I say true?  What do you propose?

Title: Re: YOU are the Optometrist!
Post by: CapitalPrince on December 25, 2013, 08:26:33 AM
its almost impossible to change any education system. For example i have countless arguments with my teachers and principals in my high school about busy work, useless hw, projects that have no value. there should be more advertisement about reading glasses. It's strange that I have never seen a advertisement about reading glasses in my life. I don't think its important to place really high importance on plus lenses. For example we are told to  brush our teeth twice a day for at least 2 mins ea. There should be more emphasize on taking care of our eyes for example, good posture, taking breaks, looking into the distance, and obviously using plus lenses for prolonged close work when necessary.

But the thing is when most people experience trouble seeing and they go to an eye doctor, they are probably at -1D or more. Although prevention is pretty easy. Reversing myopia is extremely difficult and long, and not to mention against the common belief.

One thing that really needs to go or be restricted the unnecessary and totally ridiculous astigmatic cylinder prescription which harms many people (including my) vision.

Unfortunately i don't think there is much that can be done.

Title: Re: YOU are the Optometrist!
Post by: OtisBrown on December 25, 2013, 09:59:28 AM
Hi Sam,

I try to use "neutral" words when discussing the eye with optometrists. 

I personally do not advocate that a plus lens be used, unless you want to use it - that must be your choice.  What I advocate is that the person be informed (as preventive medicine), that prevention is a possibility. 

For some reason, the optometrist does not wish to discuss even the possibility of prevention - by ANY METHOD.  I truly fault them for that attitude.  I do not care what you might choose to do. I am concerned that you are given an honest assessment of the preventive alternatives, before any lens is prescribed.

With PREVENTIVE MEDICINE being emphasized - I think this should be a requirement for all optometrists.  All they would have to do is to publish a brochure, that summarized what was being offered, and the costs for that type of support.  I would be glad to pay for it - but I can't get them to even talk about it.

What they do - when you ask them about it - is this:  They, "roll their eyes", and then they say, " Oh, that Bates-exercise business ...  that has been DISPROVEN A LONG TIME AGO ... I don't know why you are interested in that type of un-proven nonsense."

We are, after all, only talking about the possibility of prevention, and not talking about the possibility of a cure.

What I REALLY object to is this.  I was NOT INFORMED that prevention is possible - but only at the threshold.  So, after having my vision destroyed by the minus lens - I FIND OUT THAT THEY KNEW OF THIS POSSIBLITY ALL ALONG.

They do not have to "prescribe anything".  But they are obligated to TELL ME ABOUT IT.  I might surprise them - and take science and fact seriously - and protect my vision for life - with there support. 

But until they "open up" to me - I will never have a chance.
Title: Re: YOU are the Optometrist!
Post by: CapitalPrince on December 25, 2013, 11:19:04 AM
When i was in junior high and had "perfect vision" i was taken to the optometrist. obviously the doctor found I had  positive refractive state, then she could not sell me glasses if i had perfect vision and can read above 20/20. So i was told i have "astigmatism" (scary and big word), so my parents had a reason to buy glasses and a reason for me to wear it. If the doctor really wanted to sell glasses, instead of trying to harm me, he should have prescribed a low plus lens (+0.5D to +1.0D) so i can protect my positive  state. Also I feel like its my own fault for not doing research about protecting my vision earlier. But oh well....

You were able to get your vision back even after wearing a bunch of minus lenses?

Title: Re: YOU are the Optometrist!
Post by: OtisBrown on December 25, 2013, 04:30:48 PM
Hi Sam,

Pseudo-myopia (false myopia) can probably be prevented - if you do not  allow your Snellen to go below 20/60.  So-called "axial" myopia can not be prevented, (according to Dr. Bates in his 1913 study).  Here is a video that explains the difference.

I do not know of any OD who will discuss prevention with you - when you measure yourself as having pseud-myopia.

Title: Re: YOU are the Optometrist!
Post by: CapitalPrince on December 25, 2013, 05:14:18 PM
but according to that berkeley wildset lab and hung's RDT the shape of the eye can shorten. but there are some people who claimed they reversed their myopia from -6, -7,-8 -9, -10. Its frustrating how there is not a consensus. on this. did you think you were able to recover because you had pseudomyopia? and using the plus for a long time will get rid of the pseudomyopia?
Title: Re: YOU are the Optometrist!
Post by: OtisBrown on December 27, 2013, 01:14:03 PM
Hi Sam,

I obviously think that prevention is difficult.  I think we tend to "compartmentalize" the word "nearsighted", and then to insist that exclusively ODs, "find a solution" - while we sit there in total ignorance.  It was an optometrist who had the "dynamic eye" concept in mind, which I totally support - up to about 20/40 on your own Snellen.  (I know you think I am saying "cure" but I never say that.)

Let me review the remarks that the OD stated - in the above video:

1)  You should be "outdoors".  That is "generic" statement.  But in today's society - it is just not possible.  A properly worn "plus" has the effect of getting your eyes "out-doors" - all the time. This is about personal prevention and "getting out of it", while you still confirm 20/40.  It tragic that no one wants to make that point.

2)  Sugar - has no effect, other that "personal health issues".  It is a "Red herring" - designed to miss-lead.

3)  Up-date your strong minus prescription?  That is the "kiss of death", if you are attempting to avoid wearing a minus.  This is where YOUR checking of both Snellen and "refraction" is so important.  I agree with "visual standards" that I MUST meet, specifically reading the 20/40 line.

4)  Generic "exercise".  How can any argue with that one?

5)  Lights. Yes another "God and Motherhood" statement.  We all agree.  What I do add that is when kid reads in poor light - he pulls the work VERY CLOSE, with distance being -6 to -8 diopters in terms of "increased accommodation".  That issue is subtle  - but yes, we need to "sit up" and read in bright light.

6)  Eye "drops" and "breaks".  Nice statement.  But wearing the plus for all close work - is a permanent "break".  But it does take your conviction that you should do it.  What he never tells you is that in college, your refractive state goes down by -2 diopters in four years.  I regret that - because that would be enough motivation for me.  This is the real "argument" I had with my sister and her children.

7)  The "plus" (for prevention while you still can confirm 20/40).  That is truly the most difficult of recommendations.  This is because we do not "expect it", and in many cases - refuse to understand it.  This is why no optometrist will talk to you about it.  I regret that fact - but I think a professional SHOULD mention it - and let the person himself decide.

Let the "chips" fall where they may.  But this would be a truly PREVENTIVE service, not a "cure" service.

I had Dr. Raphaelson's  understandings - that made these issues crystal clear to me.  This is why I do not say, "cure", and agree that "plus wearing" is not a cure.
Title: Re: YOU are the Optometrist!
Post by: Alex_Myopic on December 27, 2013, 01:41:35 PM

Hi CapitalPrince,
you were given glasses for astigmatism even though you are normal in those tests?:  ( (
Title: Re: YOU are the Optometrist!
Post by: CapitalPrince on December 27, 2013, 03:43:31 PM
hi alex

I might have had slight astigmatism, but it was not noticeable. But i was prescribed -0.75D cyl which caused my astigmatism to worsen very fast. I got headaches from the glasses, but my doctor told me "I will get used to it". (obviously i would get used to it bc my eyes get worse) a few weeks later I noticed very very blatant ghosting and even a few meters and double vision far away.
Title: Re: YOU are the Optometrist!
Post by: Alex_Myopic on December 28, 2013, 04:04:14 AM
Thanks for your answer CapitalPrince. I don't think it is a coincidence that I got eye floaters one year later I was subscribed -1D glasses (my myopia was developing for years but no eye floaters then) and only a few months afters repeated eyes inflammations from the contact lenses and the cleanser. I was not informed well about contact lenses and had my OD's approval. Result, eye floaters at 16 even with low myopia.