Getting Stronger: Discussion Forum

Discussion Topics => Rehabilitation => Topic started by: warnbd on April 08, 2014, 06:16:36 AM

Title: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: warnbd on April 08, 2014, 06:16:36 AM
Hello All,
After studying this forum and others (PVS, Fraunfeld), I am excited to chronicle my rehabilitation and I have made progress already since Jan. 7, 2014.  This should be an interesting process, given that I have significant myopia and astigmatism. 
My history is that I started wearing glasses when I was about 11 years old and I am now 55.  As an engineer, I have done a lot of close eye work many hours a day over decades.  The results are sizeable myopia and astigmatism.

As of early Jan.:   Left:  -4.75 sph, +2.75 cyl  and Right: -3.50 sph, +1.75 cyl. (starting point)

I started the push focusing using reading glasses in front of my full correction glasses.  After a couple weeks, I ordered my first zennioptical set of glasses.  For distance, I am undercorrecting by .50 diopter(sph), and for reading 1.50 diopter undercorrection.
For the cylinder component, I undercorrected only by .50 diopter(to keep from being too blurry when focus pushing training).  I am also sporatically doing PVS exercises.

As of April 4, approx. 10 weeks of rehab., my status to achieve Snellen chart 20/20 is:

Left:  -4.00 sph, +2.25 cyl,  and Right:  -2.75 sph, +1.25 cyl. (.75 diopter spherical improvement and .25/.50 cyl. improvement)

Per Otis’s recommendations in this forum, I also purchased various test lenses to help do self optical measurements.   I have just ordered my second set of Zennioptical glasses with similar undercorrections as first set, but only .25 cylindrical further change.
Please feel free to post comments/suggestions to help with this myopia and astigmatism combination.  I am hoping to get to 20/40 status by the end of this year, based on some of the testimonials in this forum.  Thanks to Todd and other contributors here for sharing this amazing knowledge to change one's eyesight contrary to " conventional" protocol. 

Cheers,     Brad
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: OtisBrown on April 08, 2014, 06:30:01 AM
Hi Brad,

As an engineer, I studied an optometrist who call the minus, POISON for children.  I check this - and found he was correct as engineering and science.  For this reason I explained this problem to my sister's children, who wore the plus and kept their distant vision (self-checked Snellen) through the school years.  I truly know how difficult, "just prevention" is, and try to restrict my statements to helping the highly motivated "commit" to the plus, while they can still read the 20/40 to 20/50 line. 

But - I encourage you to work on this process of discovery.  If you have children, you will be better prepared to help them to avoid getting into this mess.

Here are my comments.
+++++
As of April 4, approx. 10 weeks of rehab., my status to achieve Snellen chart 20/20 is:

Left:  -4.00 sph, +2.25 cyl,  and Right:  -2.75 sph, +1.25 cyl. (.75 diopter spherical improvement and .25/.50 cyl. improvement)

+++++
It is interesting that you show, "plus astigmatism". The standard is "minus astigmatism".  But the "plus" cuts the strength of the -4 diopter. Thus your spherical equivalent is

b.  Left, -2.75 diopters (approximately), and Right:  -2.0 diopters. 

The advantage to you is this:  1) We always see with the better eye.  2) You MIGHT be able to read the 20/60 line with both eyes open (and bright light on the Snellen) I strongly urge you to check this yourself - as an objective engineer.

Decide on a "success standard" that is reasonable, and I mean reading the 20/40 line. If you are successful, you MIGHT be able to do that in about one year.

I know I have a 'strong will" on this issue - but I do accept that "recovery" to 20/40 is a very difficult thing to accomplish.


Hello All,
After studying this forum and others (PVS, Fraunfeld), I am excited to chronicle my rehabilitation and I have made progress already since Jan. 7, 2014.  This should be an interesting process, given that I have significant myopia and astigmatism. 
My history is that I started wearing glasses when I was about 11 years old and I am now 55.  As an engineer, I have done a lot of close eye work many hours a day over decades.  The results are sizeable myopia and astigmatism.

As of early Jan.:   Left:  -4.75 sph, +2.75 cyl  and Right: -3.50 sph, +1.75 cyl. (starting point)

I started the push focusing using reading glasses in front of my full correction glasses.  After a couple weeks, I ordered my first zennioptical set of glasses.  For distance, I am undercorrecting by .50 diopter(sph), and for reading 1.50 diopter undercorrection.
For the cylinder component, I undercorrected only by .50 diopter(to keep from being too blurry when focus pushing training).  I am also sporatically doing PVS exercises.

As of April 4, approx. 10 weeks of rehab., my status to achieve Snellen chart 20/20 is:

Left:  -4.00 sph, +2.25 cyl,  and Right:  -2.75 sph, +1.25 cyl. (.75 diopter spherical improvement and .25/.50 cyl. improvement)

Per Otis’s recommendations in this forum, I also purchased various test lenses to help do self optical measurements.   I have just ordered my second set of Zennioptical glasses with similar undercorrections as first set, but only .25 cylindrical further change.
Please feel free to post comments/suggestions to help with this myopia and astigmatism combination.  I am hoping to get to 20/40 status by the end of this year, based on some of the testimonials in this forum.  Thanks to Todd and other contributors here for sharing this amazing knowledge to change one's eyesight contrary to " conventional" protocol. 

Cheers,     Brad
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: warnbd on April 08, 2014, 07:21:00 AM
Hello Otis,

Thank you for your quick input.  I have tried looking at a chart with no glasses, and I can get letter recognition with some squinting at 20/80 or 20/100.   This is the problem with using equivalent spherical number with alot of astigmatism.  The astigmatism creates a general blur, which I thinks requires me to "wean" myself slowly off of the cylinder correction. 

As far as children, I have three kids, all adults now.  My oldest has had perfect vision his whole life, but is now beginning to get some eye strain (slight blur) at the end of a day after staring at computer screens.  He was thinking he was going to have to start with glasses.  But thanks to people like you and others in this forum,  I was able to share this "new" knowledge about plus lens protection with him.  He has trying out reading glasses when computer viewing and he says it has stopped the clarity degradation at the end of day.  He buys into this technique and I feel now this vision has been protected for the rest of his life (I wish I had this info when I was his age).  My youngest (19 yrs old) does have glasses (-1.50 D, and -.50 D).  I am working on her to start with plus lenses.  My third kid does not wear glasses (yet) but has had a unique optical history.  When he was very young he had strabismus (crossed eyes).  He went through two surgeries where they reattached muscles around eyes so that would point in the same direction.  The end result of this is that he cannot see in 3D.  His brain does not fuse two images.  Despite this, this brain has adapted to this and it uses both eyes somehow back and forth when it comes to spatial perception like hand/eye coordination.   I do not know if there is any therapy that can be done to re-teach his brain to join the two images.  Before finding this forum, I did not have any hope or expectation that this would be possible.  Now that my eyes have been "opened" up regarding Myopia, maybe there is way to help post-surgery strabismus.

Regarding the plus astigmatism, as you know this sign convention is arbritrary.  I like the plus cyl. value as it shows the spherical value as its worst or maximum value.  I have kept most of my old glasses, but did not have all the prescriptions.  So I came up with a homemade measurement setup that uses sunlight and aperatures(circular holes cut into paper) to project an oval shaped image.  The long direction of the oval is the maximum spherical divergence plane represented by the spherical correction component (with plus astigmatism notation).   

Brad
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: OtisBrown on April 08, 2014, 08:13:05 AM
Hi Brad,

Most of my work came from my question, "did I do (myopia) to myself" (meaning my "habits") did it to me.  The medical mind, wishing to "not offend me", claimed that my "habits" did not create negative status, for my totally normal eyes.  I consider this now a proven lie. 

I would prefer to be told the truth (before that first minus) and given encouragement to "wear the plus", and "sit up" while wearing the plus, even with 20/20 (but a refractive state of zero.)  This is what I mean by "total empowerment for true-prevention".  It is necessary to be technically honest with yourself - if you child is going to do this.  I do not consider this type of prevention to be medicine, nor can it be medical-directed - at this time.  (I had your younger child's problem - that was resolved - but I do not want to cover that subject now.)

The ophthalmologists love to do "plus astigmatism".  The optometrists love to do "minus astigmatism".  They are not equivalent.  If you said -4 with -2 diopters astigmatism, your sphere equivalent would have been -5 diopters.  That is a big difference.

Yes, for distant visual acuity, you probably do need some astigmatism at this time.  But our "near vision" simply does not have to be that sharp.  Since I calculate your "refraction" at -2 diopters, that means you can probably work at 20 inches with no lens on your face.  (You can experiment with that concept.) But if you can, that would be a great help and a step forward.  (You obviously will need your self-selected minus (probably about -2.75 for distant objects.

I realized when I talked to the honest OD who called the minus, (poison) that he was telling the truth about all natural eyes.  I realized that my vision had been totally screwed up with that minus (always increased).   But I simply did not "blame" him, or anyone.

I just did not want my nephew to do what I did - and suffer the consequences.  That means understanding that NO OD is prepared to deal with us.  (Who can accept plus-prevention as an absolute requirement.)

That means that plus-prevention must be self-taught. That means teaching  yourself how to "prescribe for yourself".  This is part of your "learning process".  Your adult children might learn from your "engineering approach" even if you are not successful.

I consider this to be very difficult - but not totally impossible.  By making this sacrifice to work on plus prevention, you might be helping them, more than you help your self. 

I think that a truly honest preventive study (at a four year college) could succeed, if each person (at 20/40) had the resolve to do what you are doing.  But I always get "blocked" from publication - by the ODs who "assume they know everything".  I regret the "friction" this causes me.



Hello Otis,

Thank you for your quick input.  I have tried looking at a chart with no glasses, and I can get letter recognition with some squinting at 20/80 or 20/100.   This is the problem with using equivalent spherical number with alot of astigmatism.  The astigmatism creates a general blur, which I thinks requires me to "wean" myself slowly off of the cylinder correction. 

As far as children, I have three kids, all adults now.  My oldest has had perfect vision his whole life, but is now beginning to get some eye strain (slight blur) at the end of a day after staring at computer screens.  He was thinking he was going to have to start with glasses.  But thanks to people like you and others in this forum,  I was able to share this "new" knowledge about plus lens protection with him.  He has trying out reading glasses when computer viewing and he says it has stopped the clarity degradation at the end of day.  He buys into this technique and I feel now this vision has been protected for the rest of his life (I wish I had this info when I was his age).  My youngest (19 yrs old) does have glasses (-1.50 D, and -.50 D).  I am working on her to start with plus lenses.  My third kid does not wear glasses (yet) but has had a unique optical history.  When he was very young he had strabismus (crossed eyes).  He went through two surgeries where they reattached muscles around eyes so that would point in the same direction.  The end result of this is that he cannot see in 3D.  His brain does not fuse two images.  Despite this, this brain has adapted to this and it uses both eyes somehow back and forth when it comes to spatial perception like hand/eye coordination.   I do not know if there is any therapy that can be done to re-teach his brain to join the two images.  Before finding this forum, I did not have any hope or expectation that this would be possible.  Now that my eyes have been "opened" up regarding Myopia, maybe there is way to help post-surgery strabismus.

Regarding the plus astigmatism, as you know this sign convention is arbritrary.  I like the plus cyl. value as it shows the spherical value as its worst or maximum value.  I have kept most of my old glasses, but did not have all the prescriptions.  So I came up with a homemade measurement setup that uses sunlight and aperatures(circular holes cut into paper) to project an oval shaped image.  The long direction of the oval is the maximum spherical divergence plane represented by the spherical correction component (with plus astigmatism notation).   

Brad
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: warnbd on April 08, 2014, 09:49:10 AM
Hi Otis,

I wanted to clarify my comments on the plus or minus cylinder notation.  What I mean't is that the prescription can be converted plus or minus, but of course the spherical also must change.  thus, a -4 sph +2 cyl converts to  -2 sph -2 cyl, this is the equivalent opposite sign I was talking about.

Regarding looking at print without glasses, at 20" the astigmatic blur makes the reading uncomfortable (but still barely legible).  This blurriness seems to disable the pushing print focus mechanism for me.  I best I can get without glasses is finding a focal plane where the print is least blurry.  This is why, until I can get my cyl. below 1.0 D, I think I need to have enough astigmatism correction to have enough image clarity.

Regarding lack of 3D vision, you said that you had had this and overcame this.  Did you also have the surgery?  And what therapy methods did you use?  Would you mind going into more detail on this and maybe spin it into a new thread, as I think there may be many who would have interest in this for themselves or for someone they know?  Until today, I never would have guessed there would be hope for a young adult who does not have stereoscopic vision.

thanks,  Brad
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: Myoctim on April 08, 2014, 11:40:26 AM

  What I mean't is that the prescription can be converted plus or minus, but of course the spherical also must change.  thus, a -4 sph +2 cyl converts to  -2 sph -2 cyl, this is the equivalent opposite sign I was talking about.

Regarding looking at print without glasses, at 20" the astigmatic blur makes the reading uncomfortable (but still barely legible).  This blurriness seems to disable the pushing print focus mechanism for me.  I best I can get without glasses is finding a focal plane where the print is least blurry.  This is why, until I can get my cyl. below 1.0 D, I think I need to have enough astigmatism correction to have enough image clarity.


Doing the math:
 
-2.75 sph, +1.25 cyl. axis x°   converts to
-1.5 sph,  -1.25 cyl. axis x°+90°

so your spherical isn't so bad!
BTW, my last eye exam also gave me that value and I can confirm your near vision problems.
I even can't get a proper farpoint measurement due to that astig. blur  :-(

The weird thing, I got that astigmatic increase after my sph. values halfed but my astigmatism doubled.
While reading before (-0.5 cyl) never was a problem now my near vision is spoiled by that astigmatism. 

But there is a trick to overcome. Simply put your finger tip in the corner of your lid and pull softly.
That way I can "tune" to compensate most of my astigmatism making all the page clear.

But I have no idea if it's healthy when doing so on the long run.
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: warnbd on April 08, 2014, 01:55:01 PM




Doing the math:
 
-2.75 sph, +1.25 cyl. axis x°   converts to
-1.5 sph,  -1.25 cyl. axis x°+90°

so your spherical isn't so bad!
BTW, my last eye exam also gave me that value and I can confirm your near vision problems.
I even can't get a proper farpoint measurement due to that astig. blur  :-(



Hi Myoctim,

Yes, the right eye as you are noting is not too bad, but the left is -4.0 sph +2.25 cyl.
Its seems odd for your astigmatism level to double.  However, if you were starting from .50D cyl, this is small and doubling a small number is still small(maybe measurement error?).  From reviewing the forum and other forums, the pattern is that as the spherical gets corrected, the astigmatism tends to reduce also.  You might want to check the PVS info (David De Angelis).  He has some eye exercises (stretching, rotations) which you can find shown on some Youtube videos and his book.  These exercises according to testimonials seem to help the astigmatism.  This seems logical to me when you think of the eyeball as a flexible structure with muscles attached.  If these muscles are imbalanced, the non-equal tensions probably is distorting the sphericity of the eye/cornea, creating the astigmatism.   I spent many years staring at drawings and computers.  My side to side eye movement range was limited and there was not alot of looking upward.  I believe these conditions and ever-increasing myopia led to my large astigmatism.

The way I am evaluating my cylinder status to to look at the spoke wheel diagram at link found in this forum:
 
www.prokerala.com/health/eye-care/eye-test/astigmatism-test.php

I position this at my blur point with my reading prescription glasses.  If all the radial lines look similar(one eye at a time) in darkness/sharpness, then the cylinder correction is about right.  I have some cylinder test lenses (.25 and .75 D) that I can put in front of one eye at a time, and from that I can get a feel for how the wheel spokes vary in darkness.  As my eyes improve, I notice the darkness of the radial lines becoming more equal.  Also, if you look at the wheel without glasses (one eye at a time), you can also see the angle of the cylinder axis, since the lines have 15 deg spacings.

Brad   
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: Ydgrunite on April 08, 2014, 03:29:37 PM
Regarding lack of 3D vision, you said that you had had this and overcame this.  Did you also have the surgery?  And what therapy methods did you use?  Would you mind going into more detail on this and maybe spin it into a new thread, as I think there may be many who would have interest in this for themselves or for someone they know?  Until today, I never would have guessed there would be hope for a young adult who does not have stereoscopic vision.

Conventional wisdom among eye health professionals is that 3D vision cannot be achieved if you don't have it by age ten.

Susan Barry described her ability to achieve 3D vision at age 48 in her book Fixing my Gaze (http://www.amazon.com/Fixing-My-Gaze-Scientists-Dimensions/dp/0465020739).  She worked with a behavioral optometrist to achieve this through vision therapy.  Although optometrists in general get a bad rap on this board, behavioral optometrists try to solve problems with a reasonable end date instead of making money from keeping people in expensive glasses.

You might find behavioral optometrists in your area (mainly US) at these sites:
College of Optometrists in Vision Development (http://www.covd.org/)
The Optometric Extension Program (http://www.oepf.org/)
Neuro-Optometric Rehabilitation Association (http://nora.cc/)

Susan Barry lists these sites at the end of her book:
strabismus.org (http://strabismus.org)
lazyeye.org (http://lazyeye.org)
convergenceinsufficiency.org (http://convergenceinsufficiency.org)
visiontherapy.org (http://visiontherapy.org)

Here are a couple of blogs:
http://livingwithdiplopia.blogspot.ca/ (http://livingwithdiplopia.blogspot.ca/)
http://strabby.wordpress.com/ (http://strabby.wordpress.com/)
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: OtisBrown on April 12, 2014, 06:03:01 AM
Hi Warnbd,

Subject: If you have 20/20 with a spherical lens - to you need a -1.5 diopters astigmatic prescription?

Here is a discussion on that topic.  I personally REJECTED astigmatic prescriptions when I was 16 years old.  I never got a "counter argument".  I probably just got a stronger minus.  (You never know what an OD will do.) 

http://frauenfeldclinic.com/magda-astigmatism-cure/

From all that I have seen, when you start "going negative" (from long term close work), some eyes launch into astigmatism.  Other eyes simply develop spherical -2 diopters or so.

But the basic reason is the same:  1) Excessive over-prescriptions, that only make matters worse.  2) A refusal to discuss the preventive choice, when at 20/40,  3) A denial that prevention  is possible.

As always I sense that you have a determination to succeed.  We all agree that the persistence is the most difficult part of true-prevention.



Hi Otis,

I wanted to clarify my comments on the plus or minus cylinder notation.  What I mean't is that the prescription can be converted plus or minus, but of course the spherical also must change.  thus, a -4 sph +2 cyl converts to  -2 sph -2 cyl, this is the equivalent opposite sign I was talking about.

Regarding looking at print without glasses, at 20" the astigmatic blur makes the reading uncomfortable (but still barely legible).  This blurriness seems to disable the pushing print focus mechanism for me.  I best I can get without glasses is finding a focal plane where the print is least blurry.  This is why, until I can get my cyl. below 1.0 D, I think I need to have enough astigmatism correction to have enough image clarity.

Regarding lack of 3D vision, you said that you had had this and overcame this.  Did you also have the surgery?  And what therapy methods did you use?  Would you mind going into more detail on this and maybe spin it into a new thread, as I think there may be many who would have interest in this for themselves or for someone they know?  Until today, I never would have guessed there would be hope for a young adult who does not have stereoscopic vision.

thanks,  Brad
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: warnbd on April 12, 2014, 03:40:28 PM
Hi Otis,

First, thank you for your post about your experience with Strabismus, and the fact that you were able to teach your brain/eyes to see stereoscopically.  I know this was a difficult experience, as I have seen it from the parental point of view as far as the operations etc. on a small child.  Your experience and those of people like Susan Barry (Fixing my Gaze book) who was able to achieve stereopsis after 40 years, gives me some hope that my adult son may have a chance to achieve this with the proper training. 

Regarding my astigmatism, as I look back over decades, the astigmatism component was gradually added(not a sudden appearance).  I have many of my old glasses.  I found some with only a little cylinder component.  With these I could not find a focal plane that was clear, which I think is needed to perform the pushing focus training.  This is why I am going to be reducing the cylinder part incrementally, each time that I change my glasses as spherical improvement happens.  I started out with 2.75 cyl. on Left, and 1.75 cyl on right.  I should receive my next set of glasses next week, which have 2.0 cyl Left and 1.0 cyl Right.  On the Fraunfeld site, I found a recommendation not to reduce the astigmatic part of prescription until some progress is made on spherical correction.  Once I get below 1.0 D cyl on an eye, I may then eliminate it for that eye.

I still trying to figure this all out, so I am trying to glean the collective wisdom here and other sources (PVS, Alex) and apply to a plan.  So far, things are moving in the right direction.

Many Regards,    Brad
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: warnbd on April 12, 2014, 03:48:29 PM
Hi Ydgrunite,

Thanks for your post and all the links.  I have been checking them out and getting up to speed on some the training methodology for Binocular vision therapy.  Hopefully I get find a clinic in the area to recommend to my son that has the expertise.  I know that this may be a long shot, but worth pursuing.  In the case of Susan Barry, it is interesting that the therapy was to improve her 2D vision problems, not necessarily to achieve Stereopsis.

Brad
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: Steven on April 23, 2014, 02:23:10 AM

  What I mean't is that the prescription can be converted plus or minus, but of course the spherical also must change.  thus, a -4 sph +2 cyl converts to  -2 sph -2 cyl, this is the equivalent opposite sign I was talking about.

Regarding looking at print without glasses, at 20" the astigmatic blur makes the reading uncomfortable (but still barely legible).  This blurriness seems to disable the pushing print focus mechanism for me.  I best I can get without glasses is finding a focal plane where the print is least blurry.  This is why, until I can get my cyl. below 1.0 D, I think I need to have enough astigmatism correction to have enough image clarity.


Doing the math:
 
-2.75 sph, +1.25 cyl. axis x°   converts to
-1.5 sph,  -1.25 cyl. axis x°+90°

so your spherical isn't so bad!
BTW, my last eye exam also gave me that value and I can confirm your near vision problems.
I even can't get a proper farpoint measurement due to that astig. blur  :-(

The weird thing, I got that astigmatic increase after my sph. values halfed but my astigmatism doubled.
While reading before (-0.5 cyl) never was a problem now my near vision is spoiled by that astigmatism. 

But there is a trick to overcome. Simply put your finger tip in the corner of your lid and pull softly.
That way I can "tune" to compensate most of my astigmatism making all the page clear.

But I have no idea if it's healthy when doing so on the long run.

I'm afraid that trick may lead to this : http://forum.gettingstronger.org/index.php/topic,955.0.html
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: Myoctim on April 26, 2014, 11:20:24 AM



o.  You might want to check the PVS info (David De Angelis).  He has some eye exercises (stretching, rotations) which you can find shown on some Youtube videos and his book.  These exercises according to testimonials seem to help the astigmatism.  This seems logical to me when you think of the eyeball as a flexible structure with muscles attached.  If these muscles are imbalanced, the non-equal tensions probably is distorting the sphericity of the eye/cornea, creating the astigmatism.   I spent many years staring at drawings and computers.  My side to side eye movement range was limited and there was not alot of looking upward.  I believe these conditions and ever-increasing myopia led to my large astigmatism.

The way I am evaluating my cylinder status to to look at the spoke wheel diagram at link found in this forum:
 
www.prokerala.com/health/eye-care/eye-test/astigmatism-test.php



Hi Brad,

thx for the info. I will check the PVS Forum.
For breaking my current plateau, I'm already doing that PVS eye rolling exercise which I saw on youtube. Maybe it also will be helpful
for astigmatism.

Concerning a measurement error I don't think so.
I always felt uncomfortable when doing prolonged nearwork with a minus prescription. So I prefered reading without those crutches and it never was a problem before like now.

Interestingly my keratomity test resulted in the corneal part of my astigmatism being negligible.
 
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: Myoctim on April 26, 2014, 11:32:13 AM
I'm afraid that trick may lead to this : http://forum.gettingstronger.org/index.php/topic,955.0.html

Uhh, I hope not!

But doing the trick everything gets cristal clear.
Awesome effect!
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: warnbd on May 19, 2014, 10:53:35 AM
I thought it was time to update my progress since it has been about 6 weeks since last update.  I received my second set of Zennioptical glasses (distance & reading) approx. mid April, and I am now seeing 20/20 with them as of mid May.

Thus current prescription is for 20/20,   Left:  -3.50 sph, +2.00 cyl  and Right: -2.25 sph, +1.00 cyl. (May 18)

Compared to starting point as of early Jan.:   Left:  -4.75 sph, +2.75 cyl  and Right: -3.50 sph, +1.75 cyl. (starting point)

This is 1.25 diopter spherical improvement and .75 cylinder improvement. I think I need to order 3rd set of glasses in a week or two( .50 sph. distance under-correction, 1.75 sph. reading under-correction).  Folks, this technique works, but it does take persistence and perseverance.
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: OtisBrown on May 19, 2014, 03:34:27 PM
Hi Warnbd,

First, I would read what an ophthalmologist says about reducing astigmatism:

http://frauenfeldclinic.com/reduce-astigmatism-90-9-months/


Then, I always like to see self-confirmed success like you report.  With -3.5 D, and +2 cyl, you have -2.5 Spherical Equivalent.

What I would "look for" would be the ability to read in excellent light at 20 inches with no lens on my face.

I am a man that accepts compromise - on a temporary basis.  Getting glasses off my face (for near) is critical.  With a Sph. Equ. of -2.5, you should know, or check your naked-eye visual acuity.  It is probably about 20/60 at this time.

The measure of success, would be to reduce your "distant" minus lens to -1 diopter (for 20/20) and perhaps 20/40, with no lens at all.

I know you will have your own "standard" to just these issues - but that is my standard.  I truly hate over-prescription, but I do accept the need for a minus (self-checked) if I need it to drive a car.  This is why I have my $25 "test lens" kit.  Saves $400 for each OD visit.  (But I know what I am doing, and I am very careful.)

Good work on your progress.


I thought it was time to update my progress since it has been about 6 weeks since last update.  I received my second set of Zennioptical glasses (distance & reading) approx. mid April, and I am now seeing 20/20 with them as of mid May.

Thus current prescription is for 20/20,   Left:  -3.50 sph, +2.00 cyl  and Right: -2.25 sph, +1.00 cyl. (May 18)

Compared to starting point as of early Jan.:   Left:  -4.75 sph, +2.75 cyl  and Right: -3.50 sph, +1.75 cyl. (starting point)

This is 1.25 diopter spherical improvement and .75 cylinder improvement. I think I need to order 3rd set of glasses in a week or two( .50 sph. distance under-correction, 1.75 sph. reading under-correction).  Folks, this technique works, but it does take persistence and perseverance.
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: chris1213 on May 19, 2014, 07:33:21 PM
Good job on the results, and quite frankly, that improvement for only a month is very impressive, keep doing whatever you're doing.
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: Myoctim on June 01, 2014, 03:34:56 AM
I thought it was time to update my progress since it has been about 6 weeks since last update.  I received my second set of Zennioptical glasses (distance & reading) approx. mid April, and I am now seeing 20/20 with them as of mid May.

Thus current prescription is for 20/20,   Left:  -3.50 sph, +2.00 cyl  and Right: -2.25 sph, +1.00 cyl. (May 18)

Compared to starting point as of early Jan.:   Left:  -4.75 sph, +2.75 cyl  and Right: -3.50 sph, +1.75 cyl. (starting point)

This is 1.25 diopter spherical improvement and .75 cylinder improvement. I think I need to order 3rd set of glasses in a week or two( .50 sph. distance under-correction, 1.75 sph. reading under-correction).  Folks, this technique works, but it does take persistence and perseverance.

Congrats!

For comparison that would translate to

-1.25D sph -1.0D cyl  for your better eye.

Is there any special exercise you can recommend?



Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: warnbd on June 10, 2014, 07:54:26 AM
Myoctim,

I am still new at this process.  I have sporadically done the PVS type eye stretching and I think it is helpful for the eyes to have full motion range without tightness.  This flexibility I think does help the eyes to coordinate their directionality when focusing.  Better muscle balance I think also can assist in reducing astigmatism.  However, I believe that pushing close vision work to the blur point is the primary adaptive mechanism to reduce myopia, as verified by my progress thus far. I do find it helpful to take breaks from close work, and palm/relax eyes for a few minutes.  This seems to "reset" eyes from strain as blurriness increases.

Today I ordered my 3rd set of zennioptical glasses with a more challenging prescription (-2.75 sph, +1.50 cyl Left,  -1.50 sph, +.50 cyl Right, for distance glasses).  (By the way, I am typing this entry with no glasses on)
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: warnbd on July 05, 2014, 01:19:01 PM
It has been a few weeks since updating my progress.  I received my third set of Zennioptical glasses 2 more weeks ago.  I now appear to be getting 20/20 with these new glasses, whose prescription is:

Left:-2.75 sph, +1.50 cyl,   Right: -1.50 sph, +.50 cyl   (approx. 2 diopters of change, Astigmatism coming along well also)
(starting point in jan was: Left:  -4.75 sph, +2.75 cyl  and Right: -3.50 sph, +1.75 cyl.)

At first I thought this was too aggressive of a change, but after a couple days of adjustment, I am glad I did this.  I definitely could tell this was challenging my eyes due to the eye strain.  I now am at the point where I can do computer work without glasses, and this will work for reading/computer until the blur point moves out too far, and then for the first time I will be able to go into "true" plus lenses. I am targeting mid August for the next prescription change, depending on rate of progress.  So far, so good, hope to get to 20/40 by late fall. 
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: OtisBrown on September 07, 2014, 05:13:11 AM
Hi Warnbd,

I think it is excellent that you obtain your own lenses from Zennioptical.  Further, it is great that you have improved your vision to the point where you can work at a computer with no lens on your face.  That is a big step towards further improvement.  You can also select a lens that gives you 20/40 vision, for most work.

Here is a simple astigmatic check by Dr. Alex.

http://frauenfeldclinic.com/test-need-astigmatism-correction-normalized-prescriptions/

I personally, try to avoid an astigmatic value - since my goal it to keep my "distant lens" as simple as possible.

As always, I think wearing a minus lens (when you have 20/40 vision or so) truly "kills vision", and getting back to a self-confirmed value of 20/40 is a great step forward. 

I argue for personal empowerment on all these levels.



It has been a few weeks since updating my progress.  I received my third set of Zennioptical glasses 2 more weeks ago.  I now appear to be getting 20/20 with these new glasses, whose prescription is:

Left:-2.75 sph, +1.50 cyl,   Right: -1.50 sph, +.50 cyl   (approx. 2 diopters of change, Astigmatism coming along well also)
(starting point in jan was: Left:  -4.75 sph, +2.75 cyl  and Right: -3.50 sph, +1.75 cyl.)

At first I thought this was too aggressive of a change, but after a couple days of adjustment, I am glad I did this.  I definitely could tell this was challenging my eyes due to the eye strain.  I now am at the point where I can do computer work without glasses, and this will work for reading/computer until the blur point moves out too far, and then for the first time I will be able to go into "true" plus lenses. I am targeting mid August for the next prescription change, depending on rate of progress.  So far, so good, hope to get to 20/40 by late fall.
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: warnbd on September 07, 2014, 10:55:13 AM
Hi All,
After receiving my 4th set of distance/reading glasses on Sept 5, I decided it was time for an update to my progress.  After adjusting to these new glasses for a couple of days, I will characterize my status as 20/25 with the distance glasses.  As usual, I have been going with .50 diopter under-correction for distance, and 1.75 diopter under for reading. 

My current status is LEFT:  -2.25 sph, +1.50 cyl;  RIGHT:  -1.25 sph, +.50 cyl  (for 20/20)
(this is approx. 2.50 spherical and 1.25 cylinder improvement in 8 months)

Therapy start was Jan 2014,   LEFT:  -4.75 sph, +2.75 cyl;  RIGHT:   -3.50 sph, +1.75 cyl.

I was not doing the print pushing as much in July, resulting in some slow down in the rate of progress.  I had been improving approx. 1/3 diopter per month.  I am confident that I will get to 20/40 in one eye at least by year end.  Again I want to say thank you to Todd for this blog and forum and to Todd and Otis for their pioneering work in helping the public to see the truth regarding Myopia. I will continue this thread so that others can see another example that treating Myopia and Astigmatism is possible if you put in the effort. 

There have been some good recent threads by jimboston (a comprehensive review) and by Nickgrouwen.  Based on my personal experience, aggressive efforts for blur clearing will pay off in improvement.  In the beginning I did do some PVS eye work, but have not been continuing, with no loss of progress. 

The issue of astigmatism is a challenge, and I think I have played this fairly well.  I have continued to reduce the cylinder component by .25 or .50 at a time.  This still allows the eyes to achieve good focus when print pushing.  I believe the eyes/brain need the reward of a mostly clear image to stimulate the auto focusing when one pushes the print into blur.  Without this, one would go from more blur to less blur.  My new glasses have no cylinder on the right, with only +1.00 cylinder on the left.

Current glasses:   Left:   -2.0 sph,+1.0 cyl,   Right:   -.75 sph, 0 cyl  (distance)
                             Left:   -0.75 sph,+1.0 cyl,   Right:   +.50 sph, 0 cyl  (reading)
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: OtisBrown on September 16, 2014, 04:28:40 AM
Hi Warn,

Here is a better way to measure astigmatism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_GBZU-kmzo

I would make up my own trial-lens set to do this at home - however.

I am pleased you can work on your computer with no lens on your face - that is indeed the first step of true-prevention.




Hi All,
After receiving my 4th set of distance/reading glasses on Sept 5, I decided it was time for an update to my progress.  After adjusting to these new glasses for a couple of days, I will characterize my status as 20/25 with the distance glasses.  As usual, I have been going with .50 diopter under-correction for distance, and 1.75 diopter under for reading. 

My current status is LEFT:  -2.25 sph, +1.50 cyl;  RIGHT:  -1.25 sph, +.50 cyl  (for 20/20)
(this is approx. 2.50 spherical and 1.25 cylinder improvement in 8 months)

Therapy start was Jan 2014,   LEFT:  -4.75 sph, +2.75 cyl;  RIGHT:   -3.50 sph, +1.75 cyl.

I was not doing the print pushing as much in July, resulting in some slow down in the rate of progress.  I had been improving approx. 1/3 diopter per month.  I am confident that I will get to 20/40 in one eye at least by year end.  Again I want to say thank you to Todd for this blog and forum and to Todd and Otis for their pioneering work in helping the public to see the truth regarding Myopia. I will continue this thread so that others can see another example that treating Myopia and Astigmatism is possible if you put in the effort. 

There have been some good recent threads by jimboston (a comprehensive review) and by Nickgrouwen.  Based on my personal experience, aggressive efforts for blur clearing will pay off in improvement.  In the beginning I did do some PVS eye work, but have not been continuing, with no loss of progress. 

The issue of astigmatism is a challenge, and I think I have played this fairly well.  I have continued to reduce the cylinder component by .25 or .50 at a time.  This still allows the eyes to achieve good focus when print pushing.  I believe the eyes/brain need the reward of a mostly clear image to stimulate the auto focusing when one pushes the print into blur.  Without this, one would go from more blur to less blur.  My new glasses have no cylinder on the right, with only +1.00 cylinder on the left.

Current glasses:   Left:   -2.0 sph,+1.0 cyl,   Right:   -.75 sph, 0 cyl  (distance)
                             Left:   -0.75 sph,+1.0 cyl,   Right:   +.50 sph, 0 cyl  (reading)
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: warnbd on September 16, 2014, 06:50:22 AM
Since you brought up the topic of astigmatism, this gives me the opportunity to share what has been useful to me in self evaluation.  The spoke diagram that I like to use is at a link below.attached to this post.  At this link I use the black line on white version.  You can download a PDF version.  I tried to attach the PDF, but the file size was not allowed. The lines are at 10 degree spacing.

http://vision-training.com/en/Download/Astigmatism/index.html
 
The first use in using this picture is to get the cylinder axis for each eye.  With no glasses and using one eye at a time, I note which line(s) are clearest and darkest.  The angle of this line relative to the 9:00 position, is the cylinder axis angle (with the prescription having + notation on the cylinder value (i.e.  -2.00 sph, +1.00 cyl, 80 deg,  my left eye) ).  The 80 deg is clockwise from the 9:00 position.

The second use is a qualitative function using my reading glasses with the spoke picture at the D1 plane (edge of focus).  90 deg from the darkest line is the blurriest or grayer lines.  If the 90 deg off lines are dark gray whose edges are still distinct, this is .25-.50 cylinder level.  If the off lines are lighter gray and more blurry, this is more like .75/1.00 cylinder.  If off lines have ghost doubles, then this could be 1.00/1.50 cylinder. 
Though my experience, as the spherical improves, the cylinder improves as observed using the above feedback.  I also have .25 and .75 cylinder trial lenses, which  if rotated 90 deg, change from + to – diopter.

Progress Update:
My most recent prescription update glasses (1 week ago) have been a challenge.  With this change of an additional .50 cylinder change, I am getting a lot more ghosting or double imaging.  Up until now I have not had much of this.  The good news is after aggressive work with these new glasses, I am seeing renewed faster changes.
Due to the astigmatism, I have not done much bare eye Snellen checking, as the astigmatism blurring obscures the results.  Yesterday, I did some bare eye testing(both eyes together), and I was able to get letter recognition at the Snellen 20/40 line, after a few seconds of staring and blinks.  The letters are still blurry with some double ghosting.  The ghosting is fainter and much blurryier than the main image.  Going to the 20/30 line, I was able to see 40% of the letters.  This is not a “robust” 20/40 pass, but a promising indication.  I think in 4-6 weeks, this will be a solid 20/40 status (both eyes together, and in 1 individual eye).
 
By the way, I have been using the on-line snellen chart(see link) for my measurement.  I like this one because you can adjust it for distances other than 20 feet and it will refresh with new letters when you hit display button.  This avoids the bias of memorizing or knowing  the letters of a non-changing snellen chart.

  http://www.smbs.buffalo.edu/oph/ped/IVAC/IVAC.html
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: OtisBrown on September 16, 2014, 07:14:42 AM
Hi Warn,
Thanks for your up-data, and checking your visual acuity using the electronic Snellen.  You are right - it prevents "cheating", in that you can not memorize the letters.  Since I check myself - I find the 20 foot chart is helpful for me, since I can tell instantly if I am reading the 20/20 iine -  or not.

For myself, (when I was at -7 diopters, and 20/200 or worse), I could only DREAM of reading the 20/40 line !!! 

So when you read that line, objectively, I think that is very important.  I am a person who will accept a compromise in my life.  If that means I only pass the 20/40 line, (and the DMV) that is great for me. I know we each have our own standards, and want 20/15 vision.  But sometimes, just passing the DMV is an important step.

It is were me, as soon as I pass the DMV line, objectively, I would stop wearing any lens, astig. or spherical.  (I would obtain some $7 glasses for my own driving - but that would be very limited.)

The more you can avoid the minus lens, and cyl. lens - the better - in my opinion.

When I started this work - I did not know how truly difficult it would be to do it - and how dependent I would become on the qualities of the person himself.

Both you and Alex_myopic has shown what is possible.  We all need encouragement, and that means having an objective, self-measured goal you can see for yourself.  You are doing very well.

Thanks!
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: warnbd on September 16, 2014, 08:22:10 AM

Hi Otis,

Thanks for the encouragement.  This process is difficult at times, but I am still highly motivated.  I would love to avoid glasses, but I must be patient and stay on plan.  I have already eliminated cylinder on right, but still must "nurse" my left.  In November I will be reducing the left cylinder to .50, and then to zero in Jan. 2015.  I hope to be near 20/20 in Jan/Feb in one eye at least.

I had no idea you were at -7 diopters at one time. To get to your present state was it all done with plus lens work?

I still am amazed that this process works, and that it has been a mostly "hidden" secret.  I had never heard of anything like this in my lifetime.  Unfortunately, relatively few people will ever hear about the method, and apply it over a long period of time. 


For myself, (when I was at -7 diopters, and 20/200 or worse), I could only DREAM of reading the 20/40 line !!! 

So when you read that line, objectively, I think that is very important.  I am a person who will accept a compromise in my life.  If that means I only pass the 20/40 line, (and the DMV) that is great for me. I know we each have our own standards, and want 20/15 vision.  But sometimes, just passing the DMV is an important step.

It is were me, as soon as I pass the DMV line, objectively, I would stop wearing any lens, astig. or spherical.  (I would obtain some $7 glasses for my own driving - but that would be very limited.)

The more you can avoid the minus lens, and cyl. lens - the better - in my opinion.

When I started this work - I did not know how truly difficult it would be to do it - and how dependent I would become on the qualities of the person himself.

Both you and Alex_myopic has shown what is possible.  We all need encouragement, and that means having an objective, self-measured goal you can see for yourself.  You are doing very well.

Thanks!

Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: OtisBrown on September 16, 2014, 09:23:05 AM
Hi Warn,

One of the things I do - is to PROTEST my repeated over-prescriptions - that I received as a child.  I blame myself for my own bad-habits, for certain.  I blame the OD for NOT volunteering any information to me, about science, facts and prevention - when I was a 20/40.

That minus lens and over-prescription simply destroyed my vision - permanently, in my judgment.

I restrict myself to only people who can still read the 20/60 line, and have the wisdom to avoid the minus at that point.  If the person gets to 20/40 self checked, he should thank his "lucky stars" that he had the wisdom to avoid the minus - when he passes the DMV.

I did this work for my sister's children - so they would not repeat my stupid mistake.

I love and respect medical people.  But they are totally lost - about prevention.

I did get my vision restored by cataract surgery - and I am thankful for that.

But now, I RETAIN my distant vision, by doing this reading a typing THOUGH a +2.5 diopter lens.  If only I had been helped to do this myself - when I was at 20/40.  It would have been so easy - although difficult.

I would aim at 20/25 - as a REASONABLE goal.

Be forewarned.  It is a very slow process - and will be frustrating for that reason.
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: Ydgrunite on September 16, 2014, 10:06:07 AM
Otis,

I don't mean to be disrespectful.  I certainly admire the efforts that you put in to help people improve their vision.  But I am not convinced that you have really had any personal success.

You eliminated your need for minus lenses through surgery, thus locking in any axial lengthening that has already happened.

You say that you retain your distant vision by motivating yourself to use the plus lens for close work.  You are a man of a certain age.  You must be affected by presbyopia by now.  Are you motivating yourself to use the plus lens, or are you simply forced to?  My mother has to wear a plus lens for all close work and she has never read anything about vision improvement.  She does it because she has to.

But that does not take anything away from the good work that you do in advising younger people.  People who are able to see near and far with the same prescription really do have to be motivated to use a plus lens.

In the past in this forum, I have shared some results of my own journey to improve from -9.5 D and, since I do not verify with Snellen readings, you told me that I am "just kidding myself."  But I know that I have already had more success than you have had.

I find your constant emphasis on 20/60 acuity as the limit where improvement can be expected to be very discouraging for people with lower acuity.  You failed to improve, but others don't have to.

Unfortunately, I am too busy to post 1000 messages on this forum that might offset that message.

Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: OtisBrown on September 16, 2014, 10:39:16 AM
Hi Ydgrunite,


Yd> I don't mean to be disrespectful.  I certainly admire the efforts that you put in to help people improve their vision.  But I am not convinced that you have really had any personal success.

Otis> I NEVER claimed, "personal success", have I?

Otis> What I said, is that prevention (up to 20/50 to 20/60) MIGHT be possible.  I certainly think you distant vision is permanently lost - if you even START wearing a minus lens. 

Otis> This come about because of this study - if you would pay attention to it:

http://myopiafree.wordpress.com/study/

This study shows that PREVENTION would be possible, up to about 20/60, but that, the eye that wears a minus lens - continues to go down at a rate of -1/2 diopter per year.

If there is ANY "getting out of it", it will be at +1/2 diopter per year.

Thus, my wearing of a plus - is to avoid going down by -1/2 diopter per year.

I would also point out that people who have had Lasik, and go back to doing "close work", and not wearing a plus, simply become myopic - yet again.

For me, prevention (after Lasisk, with a plus) would be a great saving of money. 

Further, I know that most people at 20/40, think any prevention, is a big joke.  Well - in my opinion, ignoring that -1/2 diopter per year, and the expected additional -3 diopters in six years, will be the person's tragedy.

No, success does NOT depend on *me*.  It depends on the intelligence and motivation of the person himself, to not repeat the mistake that was committed on me.

OD are a total, "lost cause".  Because they are so brain-washed, they do not look at ANY SCIENCE OR FACTS, that show that prevention (at 20/40) is both reasonable and possible.  Here are their remarks, and mine - for your interest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQBW9VYvw5w

They are totally lost, and it is a waste of time to even attempt to discuss prevention which I acknowlege must be done - by yourself.

Only prevention is possible, and there can be no medical help for you.





Otis,

I don't mean to be disrespectful.  I certainly admire the efforts that you put in to help people improve their vision.  But I am not convinced that you have really had any personal success.

You eliminated your need for minus lenses through surgery, thus locking in any axial lengthening that has already happened.

You say that you retain your distant vision by motivating yourself to use the plus lens for close work.  You are a man of a certain age.  You must be affected by presbyopia by now.  Are you motivating yourself to use the plus lens, or are you simply forced to?  My mother has to wear a plus lens for all close work and she has never read anything about vision improvement.  She does it because she has to.

But that does not take anything away from the good work that you do in advising younger people.  People who are able to see near and far with the same prescription really do have to be motivated to use a plus lens.

In the past in this forum, I have shared some results of my own journey to improve from -9.5 D and, since I do not verify with Snellen readings, you told me that I am "just kidding myself."  But I know that I have already had more success than you have had.

I find your constant emphasis on 20/60 acuity as the limit where improvement can be expected to be very discouraging for people with lower acuity.  You failed to improve, but others don't have to.

Unfortunately, I am too busy to post 1000 messages on this forum that might offset that message.
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: Ydgrunite on September 16, 2014, 12:01:48 PM
Otis> I NEVER claimed, "personal success", have I?

No, but it would give you more credibility. 


Otis> What I said, is that prevention (up to 20/50 to 20/60) MIGHT be possible.  I certainly think you distant vision is permanently lost - if you even START wearing a minus lens. 

Otis> This come about because of this study - if you would pay attention to it:

http://myopiafree.wordpress.com/study/

This study shows that PREVENTION would be possible, up to about 20/60, but that, the eye that wears a minus lens - continues to go down at a rate of -1/2 diopter per year.

If there is ANY "getting out of it", it will be at +1/2 diopter per year.

So distance vision is permanently lost if you START wearing the minus, but you will reluctantly make a claim about the rate (+1/2 D/year) that someone can "get out of it."  You really know how to hedge your bets.  Is it impossible or not?

And why do you claim that +1/2 D per year is the limit?  Just because a study shows that the average person goes down at a rate of -1/2 D per year in school.  You may be an engineer, but maybe you should hit the books again to refresh your memory on the scientific method.

Dr. Alex has a theory for how myopia progresses and how it is reversed.  Near Induced Transient Myopia followed by Lens Induced Myopia.  If a young person in schoool visits the OD once every year or two, then myopia may progress at the rate that you claim.  But if I am reducing my prescription every five or six weeks, why would I expect the rate of recovery from myopia to be the same as the rate that I got into it?

How can you make a claim like that?  It is not based on personal experience since you failed to reduce your high myopia through methods discussed in this forum and by Dr. Alex.  You do not cite a study for the +1/2 D rate.

There are two kinds of statistics: the kind you look up and the kind you make up.


For me, prevention (after Lasisk, with a plus) would be a great saving of money. 

Wouldn't it be better to avoid the Lasik by reducing myopia from whatever state it is currently at?

Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: OtisBrown on September 16, 2014, 03:55:50 PM
Yd> No, but it would give you more credibility. 

Otis> No it would DESTROY my engineering and scientific credibility.

Otis> If I were SELLING something, then I would make wild claims.  (As you see in so many places).

Otis> I only suggested that it would be wise to start with prevention, before your Snellen goes below 20/40.

Otis> The worse thing that anyone could do would be to say, "... cure everything".  I never said, "cure".

Otis> Even Bates said, DO NOT START WEARING A MINUS LENS. (When at 20/40 to 20/70).  I completely agree with him.

Otis> In fact, I accept that only prevention (at 20/40) is even possible.  But if you get your own minus lens - you can prescribe for yourself - which gives you full control - if you want it.

Otis> But here is the point-of-view of an OD in his office.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_aqg6NH_kk

Otis>  They deal with the "ignorant" and not-motivated general public - that can not be inspired, or "cured".  The only answer in an office is an over-prescribed lens, that does kill  you vision, or make matters far worse.

Otis> Quite a few of you believe that an OD is interested in prevention (where they do not charge you money for it).  You are sadly mistaken.

Otis> I would rather be told a tough brutal, and HONEST truth, than to be fed the, "office non-sense", that it is all heredity, and nothing can be done, so shut up and wear that strong minus all the time - and your, "vision will get better".  That is the biggest and most destructive lie of all.  Then they are "hurt", when they think that you do not, "trust them" -- when they over-prescribe you by at least -1.0 diopters at EVERY SITTING.

Otis> No, I do not "hate" them for that.  But there has to be a better way.  Even if I must "wise up" and do it all myself.
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: Ydgrunite on September 17, 2014, 06:38:04 AM
So, if I understand it correctly, the target audience of people that you believe that you can help are those who have never worn the minus lens.  Why would those people be searching the internet for a solution  to a problem that they don't even know that they have yet?

Most people that seek out forums like this one seem to already have a minus lens, even if it is only -1.0 D.

But you say that there is no hope for people once they start wearing a minus lens.

Prevention would indeed be the best thing but, even if someone is using a minus lens, improvement is still possible.

Stop discouraging people who currently wear minus lenses.  These are the people who come looking for a solution and they can be helped.

You failed to reduce your myopia, but many have succeeded.
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: Alex_Myopic on September 17, 2014, 10:25:57 AM

Stop discouraging people who currently wear minus lenses.  These are the people who come looking for a solution and they can be helped.


It is true that Mr Brown speaks sometimes with (scientific) austerity. I too believe that if a person is at 20/40 and never has worn minus it is easy for him to get to 20/20 in months or a year so ODs have some big blaim not suggesting it. In his (Mr Brown's) blog he also writes that even at 20/60 or 20/70 very motivated people (like pilots) can have success (to the degree of going about 20/20).

On the other hand stopping the progression or even decreasing myopia is a big success for not getting pathogenic myopia mainly. In high myopia a person doesn't need a plus too.

Dr Alex gave a lot of information about active focus and other stuff for free and a program for a reasonable price. If someone knows something better he should also give it for free. There are many people like me who are at plateaus or at small rates or at high myopia who need that!!!
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: warnbd on September 17, 2014, 10:56:10 AM
Since I started this thread, I will attempt to referee this disagreement going on.

First, the credibility comment is a bit of a cheap shot.  A trained heart surgeon can effectively perform heart surgeries, even though he has not personally had a heart attack and recovered.  He can be effective with the proper training and expertise.

However, some clarifications are need.  I think when Otis is talking about prevention, it is taking action at -1.0 D or less before using minus lenses.  Prevention being defined as using plus lenses when doing close work.

Let me define "prevention" as use of a plus lens not necessarily at its focal plane.  For example, if I do reading with the print at 20 inches, and I use +2.0 D plus lenses (focal length 39”), there is no print pushing going on.  This is still protective as the eye’s lenses are not being pushed hard to see the print.

Perhaps, if this type of prevention(as defined above) is done by someone at -1.0 D, before axial myopia has begun, a slow return to 20/20 will occur over time at a rate of +.50 D per year.  This is how I would interpret Otis’s prevention comments.

I want to contrast this with “plus lens therapy”, which I define as purposeful pushing print into blur (or distance pulling) to induce axial changes to the eye.  I also would define plus lens therapy as relative to one’s myopic state.   If one has -3.0 D, using -2.0 D lens would be “plus” +1.0 in a relative sense.  This process can correct various myopic levels to normal as evidenced by the many anecdotal stories on this forum and others, including Todd Becker.  I do not think Otis would suggest that restoring vision is not possible.  Also, with my own experience so far, and others like Todd, Alex, etc., rates of improvement can be way beyond +.50 D per year. 

Using my definitions, I think some of the disagreement can be resolved.   I invite Otis and others to respond if I have clarified correctly.  The quote I can not yet understand is the one below that pertains to the masses that have been wearing minus for a long time.  I hope that my distant vision is not permanently lost. :-\

  I certainly think you distant vision is permanently lost - if you even START wearing a minus lens. 


Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: OtisBrown on September 17, 2014, 12:14:13 PM
Hi Yd,

Otis> I am certain you are a sincere dedicated person.  But I believe in science, and fact - and that science and fact do not allow me to make "false claims" or excessive claims.  I never wish to mis-lead a person in to believing he can get out of -9 diopters, when the scientific reality is that steady increases in a strong minus lens, over 10 years, have gotten him down to -9 diopters.

Yd> So, if I understand it correctly, the target audience of people that you believe that you can help are those who have never worn the minus lens.  Why would those people be searching the internet for a solution  to a problem that they don't even know that they have yet?

Otis>  You are making an assumption about *MY* target audience.  It is not the "general public", it is not you, it was my sister's children.  I had no desire to see them even START wearing a strong minus, when they could still pass the 20/40 line (about -1 diopter).  But the real issue is this.  OVER-PRESCRIPTION of a minus lens.  People who have 20/40, will often get a -2 to -2.5 diopter lens, when they should check their own Snellen, and NOT wear the minus.  I refuse to take responsiblity for the adverse effect of a minus lens (on all natural eyes) - once you choose to even START wearing a minus lens.

Yd> Most people that seek out forums like this one seem to already have a minus lens, even if it is only -1.0 D.

Otis> But, "most people", are in FEAR of wearing a plus a that point, and will REFUSE to even consider NOT wearing a minus.  That is tragic, but a person must understand the basic facts that I present.

http://myopiafree.wordpress.com/study/

Otis> ODs look at this, and say it is all your "bad heredity".  (-1/2 diotper per year for each year in school).  I look at it, and say, prevention is still possible - if you have the intense motivation to reject the minus lens, and WEAR THE PLUS WITH THE DEDICATION REQUIRED.  This is truly a PERSONAL choice, never a medical choice.  Here again, if I do not make this issue clear, it looks like I am giving, "medical advice", which his not the case.

Otis> Are far a getting out of it (-1 diopter and 20/40) I suggested that a 20/40 you can stop wearing a minus,  for some time. (Get your own minus from Zennioptical.  But here is what I believe is the official rate of improvement.  It is +1/2 diopter per year.

http://myopiafree.wordpress.com/od-success/

Otis> I doubt that a person at -9 diopters will get out of it, so I do not mis-lead him to suggest that he can.

Otis> But the real issue is not what *I* believe, or what *YOU* think I should believe.  It is up to Warnbd, for him to choose what he wishes to believe, and what actions he might wish to do to achieve normal vision.  It is very clear to me that no OD can help him.  But there is a possibility that Warnbd can help himself.

Otis> I will not fight an OD about this issue.



So, if I understand it correctly, the target audience of people that you believe that you can help are those who have never worn the minus lens.  Why would those people be searching the internet for a solution  to a problem that they don't even know that they have yet?

Most people that seek out forums like this one seem to already have a minus lens, even if it is only -1.0 D.

But you say that there is no hope for people once they start wearing a minus lens.

Prevention would indeed be the best thing but, even if someone is using a minus lens, improvement is still possible.

Stop discouraging people who currently wear minus lenses.  These are the people who come looking for a solution and they can be helped.

You failed to reduce your myopia, but many have succeeded.
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: warnbd on September 17, 2014, 01:39:18 PM
Hi jimboston,

I am going to put together a comprehensive response to your questions, as I think this may be helpful to many, but first can you clarify what you were referring to in the quote, ....correct for personal bias...? 

I'd like to know whether you correct for personal bias, as 0.25D a month is great but not typical rate of improvement.

Thank you
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: warnbd on September 18, 2014, 07:53:04 AM
Hi Jim,

I will address the measurement question first.  You asked how I evaluate my progress.  Because of my astigmatism, I have not used the Snellen chart with bare eyes much, due to the astigmatic blurriness masking the results.  I do use the Snellen with my distance glasses to determine where I am at.  I do have some trial test lenses to put in front of my distance glasses (+ or -).  For example if adding a -.50 sph test lens brings an eye to 20/20, then I would add that to the known glasses spherical value.

For my Snellen check, I try to keep everything consistent, to get repeatable measurements.  I use the same chart, with the same lighting, with the same distance, and in the morning.  I mostly use the Snellen when I am getting closer to needing the next set of glasses.  My threshold to “pass” a chart line is that I want to be able to recognize all letters on that line, while seeing less than ½ the letters on the next line.  I use an on-line chart that I can refresh the letters to take away the “bias” on using the same chart, whose letters cannot change.  Also I do not allow myself to squint.  I relax, blink and then look at the chart (looking through distance glasses).  I check both eyes together and with individual eyes.  If I find that one eye is .25 D different than the other in acuity,  I note that and adjust the next prescription.

My approach is to go with .50 sph D under-correction for distance glasses, and 1.75 D under for reading glasses.  This puts my D1 distance at about 20”.   As the days go by, I check the D1 distance from my forehead to the laptop screen nearly every day.  This measurement will vary, but as the D1 gets into the 28-32” range, I know to do a careful Snellen check to see where I am at.  Ideally, I like to get to 20/15(with distance glasses) with both eyes and 20/20 on individual eyes before going to new glasses. 

As far as astigmatism checking, I do use cylinder test lenses while looking at a spoke wheel picture to get the power needed and the cylinder axis angle.  Through experience, I can look at this spoke wheel picture and determine the cylinder by the look of the grayer or blurrier lines relative to the darker or sharper lines.

I feel this method works for me and is a good enough objective measurement to track my progress.  I realize that this must be done consistently to maximize the accuracy.  I have had enough eye exams over 40 years to know if what I am doing is similar to that resulting from the office exam. 

Now, in your post, you mentioned using an auto-refractor as being ideal.  I would respectfully disagree with that assumption.  I did some investigation on autorefracting and found a consensus that at best, an auto-refractor is nearly as good as manual refracting process (assuming there is a good technician).  The recommended use for auto refractors is to get a good starting point for the final manual lens refracting work, or to use for prescription in the case of children or those with developmental or communicative impairments.  An auto refractor cannot fully duplicate the complex interaction between brain and eyes, and also doesn’t account for the final effect of the lenses, that have their own optical aberrations and diffraction effects.  Therefore I would never be comfortable with a final prescription from an auto-refractor without “tweaking” with actual test lenses to get the full effect of actual glasses on the brain/eye optical system.  This is all assuming you have a competent optician that does not over-correct you to 20/15.

With the progress being made, I do not see any need to go in and get a "official" eye exam.  When I get to the 20/20 area, I may for fun go in and get an exam to verify and compare.  I will bring in my last "official" prescription and see if they can explain the change to the current optical status. 

warnbd
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: warnbd on September 18, 2014, 10:01:15 AM
JimBoston,

This is in response to your questions about my clearing blur.  In general, I would say I am following the Becker protocol.  I go back and forth between D1 and D2 distances to trigger the focus.  I do use blinking, as it seems to reset things and trigger a blur clearing.  Sometimes, I do not get clearing right away and it takes several blinks before triggering, or going back to D1 to re-establish focus.  I believe it is this back and forth between D1 and D2 is an oscillation of the focal plane position that triggers the axial length changes.  The focal plane image hovers between on the retina to just in front of the retina.  Doing this over and over again and for long periods per day, results in more rapid progress.  When the focus is achieved, I try to hold to for a few seconds before blinking.  If you try to hold it too long, the eyes dry out and get irritated. I know you do not like hypothesizing, but I think the common thread of the success stories is repeatedly putting the image close to but in front of the retina.  Staring at a non-changing blurred text image is not enough.  I think the oscillation of focus to non-focus to focus, etc. is the key.

I think each individual has to find the nuances to help this focus trigger.  Some have found the PVS CRB to be helpful in this, but I did not.  Some will do a hard blink to make this work.  Adding a little tension to the eyelids sometimes helps (not squinting). 

I have not found eye rotations as being useful.  Although it is helpful after holding a clear flash, to close the eyes and while closed move eyes back and forth.  This seems to sooth the eyes, and re-lubricate them also.  In the beginning of this process, I did do some eye rotations and found that there was some ocular stiffness on one eye when looking up and left.  This tightness went away and has not returned. 

I think the rate of progress is dependent on the time put in and the challenge that you make to the eyes.  If you divide 2.5 D change over 8 months, this is approx. .31 diopters per month.  If you look at CapitalPrince father’s results, 1.0 diopter in 3 months, this is .33 diopters per month. 

This may be the upper end of the rate of progress possible.  Trying to go further usually results in over doing it.  There are many days that I did over do it, and it results in fatigued eyes that are worse off the next day, requiring some recovery time for a day or two. 

This progress is not a linear even process.  I have had 3-5 week plateaus, followed by more rapid change.  I have found that when changing to the next set of glasses, this seems to trigger some quicker changes in the following few days. 

This is still a learning curve to me, and hoping this continues to 20/20.  I think I will get to the DMV approved milestone in a month or two.

warnbd
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: warnbd on September 22, 2014, 10:12:39 AM
JimBoston,

I try to do as many hours as I can per day, probably averaging 3 to 4 hours per day.  As the day progresses, the eyes get some strain, and the acuity does gets worse, probably .25 diopter from morning to evening.  Then it is important for good sleep to reset again.  If I overdo it on a particular day, I can tell the difference the next morning with less acuity.

As far the oscillation concept, it can come in two ways.  If you are at D2, with some blurriness and then get focus, hold it then blink, often you lose the focus.  Rinse and repeat.  This is moving the image plane back and forth from just in front of the retina to at the retina.  In this case the image(inside the eye) is moving (oscillation) without physically moving the viewing plane (book or screen) relative to your eye. This is the most common method for this movement.

The other way is moving the viewing plane from D1 to D2, back to D1, etc.  This also is moving the image plane in the back of the eye. The distance from D1 to D2 is more of a clarity difference, rather than a measured cm distance.  This distance is also dependent on D1.  If one has D1 at 20", versus 40", the depth of field will also double.  Meaning from the same amount of slight defocus, the D1 to D2 will be different for different viewing planes. If I move to a D2 that is too much, I will struggle to get the focus.  In this case, I go back to D1 and then try again. 

The bottom line is to keep the image "dancing" back and forth in front of and at the retina, hopefully stimulating the focus mechanism (to promote flattening of the lens) and encouraging the axial length shortening over time. 

Regarding the auto-refractor discussion, I did base my comments on studies that I came across.  Ultimately this is a bit academic on measurement methods.  The important thing for each person wanting long term myopia reduction is to have some consistent method to measure your own progress(I described my method earlier in this thread).  If the conditions that are setup consistently and one follows them consistently, relative progress will be noticed, and will give you reasons to purchase the next set of under-corrected lenses.

If one is fooling themselves in their measurements, reality will quickly catch up with you, as you won't be able see well with the next set of glasses. 

Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: OtisBrown on September 22, 2014, 08:46:13 PM
Hi Warn,

I want to congratulate you on your progress since Jan 2014.

Warn>  As of early Jan.:   Left:  -4.75 sph, +2.75 cyl  and Right: -3.50 sph, +1.75 cyl.

I know that it takes great persistence, self-measurement and control to work yourself back to naked eye 20/40.   ( I do accept that you wish to reduce the astigmatic component.)

What I think you are doing RIGHT, is to get and use your own test-lenses.  It is important for this reason.

1) If you can clear your Snellen to 20/20 (which I know you have done), it proves you have no true medical problem (like detached retina, etc.)

2) If you could not get 20/20, from your test lenses, that is the point where I go to an ophthalmologist. 

3) That is to circumvent the "Bates problem", in that I think the person must make this check himself.  Otherwise, he might try to get out of cataract, or detached retina - and that would truly be a bad situation.

You have the tools and knowledge to know the challenge that you face.  Probably, our only disagreement, is that I highly value 20/40 vision, as a point where I can (almost) discard a minus lens.  I do not have significant cylinder, and my refractive status checks are done with a spherical lens

Please continue to post - it will probably take another nine months to get to comfortable 20/30 to 20/25 for you.
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: warnbd on September 23, 2014, 07:13:56 AM
jimboston,

If I remember right, Todd's talk about double vision was regarding distance viewing, like power lines, edges of buildings etc.  With astigmatism, this double vision (one darker, one faint) is more noticeable and images further apart as the distance increases.  I do not recall Todd talking about double image when doing near work.  If having trouble focusing at smaller font, it seems to help to go to bigger font to capture focus and return to the smaller font.  This works at a on-line news site, where there is a variety of font sizes on the same page. 

For me, with the last set of glasses, I now am having more double image issues(in each eye), due to my rapid reduction of cylinder.  When reading it is almost not detectable (until end of day when eyes are tired).  But at 12 feet away on smaller print on the TV, I see a ghost blurred image of the letters directly below the distinct image.  I hope to ignore the faint double and have it gradually go away.  This double thing has not been much of an issue until now, maybe a sign of good progress according to Todd.

As far as the oscillation, do not forget the type that you stay at D2, while it is out of focus, then bring into focus (blink) and hold it until you have to blink, and maybe lose the focus again.  Staying there at D2, repeat. 

As far as the training, I do both single-minded training, and integrate with other reading tasks.  With distance glasses, I also always try to to distance pulling too when outside or watching TV across the room, driving, etc.  It is almost a lifestyle commitment to find opportunities to do vision work. 

warnbd
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: warnbd on September 25, 2014, 05:33:27 AM
Jimboston,

As far as the oscillation, do not forget the type that you stay at D2, while it is out of focus, then bring into focus (blink) and hold it until you have to blink, and maybe lose the focus again.  Staying there at D2, repeat. 

warnbd,

Now that you have mentioned it twice, I translate your suggestions into two separate techniques:

1. Oscillating between blur and clarity (D2 & D1), occasionally "grabbing" a clear image at D1 in order to trigger clearing at D2.
2. Alternating between blinking and staring at a fixed distance beyond the blur point (D2).

I want to clarify your second point, the fixed distance version is still at D2, not necessarily beyond D2.
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: warnbd on September 25, 2014, 05:23:23 PM
Jigsaw,

Your description of double vision and astigmatism sounds very similar to what i am going through.  With my most recent set of glasses, this is much more noticeable.  I believe I have been reducing my cylinder power at a faster rate that is out-pacing my cylinder improvement, while the spherical improvement is what I base the decision for new glasses.  My difference is that it is horizontal lines are double or ghosted with the vertical being clear.  For text, this creates a faint ghost of the letters shifting down by 1/2 letter height.  If my eyes get tired, more fatigued, the ghosting shift gets bigger and the ghosting is less faint. 

Hopefully this is just a temporary phase that happens after one is past halfway to 20/20.  Also similar to you, my double vision is in each eye individually, therefore not a brain fusion problem.  I have not really done the stare and blink method, will have to experiment with it. 
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: warnbd on October 13, 2014, 08:33:54 AM
Hi All,

It has been about a month since my last status update.  I have been using the on-line Snellen chart for checking, which gives me consistent backlighting on my laptop, which is not as bright as direct sunlight or bright incandescent indoors.  I do this to better reflect what the DMV might have for lighting.

With bare eyes(together only) I am able to get 100% letter recognition for 20/40 line, and with a few more blinks 100% of the 20/30 line.  Again this despite the ghosting issue.  The double vision has gotten a little better, with road signs being much less annoying to look at.   For near work, I am trying no lens on left (0 sph, 0 cyl), and +.50 sph, 0 cyl on the right.  i can get D2 out to approx. 26".  This gives me an approx. 1.50 (equiv. sph.) LEFT, and 1.00 sph on RIGHT for 20/20. 

I will probably wait until mid Nov. for next therapy glasses set.  In the distance glasses, I will still retain some cylinder amount to keep eye strain tolerable with distance (>10ft).

I also been experimenting with Accommodation Rock, and this seems to help reduce the double vision when my eyes get more tired.  It seems to do a bit of reset.  Also, for eye rest break, I have been using an eye mask (used by some at night to block out light) for 2 or 3 minutes at a time when eyes are fatigued.  This also helps do a reset, and is easier than palming.

All in all, progress goes on, hoping for 20/20 by next Feb/Mar. 

warnbd
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: OtisBrown on October 13, 2014, 09:05:44 AM
Hi Warnbd,

Subject: Self-confirmed objective progress - is the progress you BELIEVE.

I am pleased you get your lenses from Zennioptical.  They do a good job at low cost. 

For myself, I am wearing a +2.5 when I type this, although I CAN read at type with out them.  This is my leadership position.

I am pleased you like the Electronic-Snellen.  I think it is better for most people - just to be consistent with good brightness.  I prefer the 20 foot Snellen, because I do not want to walk back and forth to press "display" - unless you can get someone to do that for you.

http://www.smbs.buffalo.edu/oph/ped/IVAC/IVAC.html


As always, I recommend the strongest plus possible, for comfort and ease of use.

This is indeed a very slow process - for anyone who had been able to do it.


Hi All,

It has been about a month since my last status update.  I have been using the on-line Snellen chart for checking, which gives me consistent backlighting on my laptop, which is not as bright as direct sunlight or bright incandescent indoors.  I do this to better reflect what the DMV might have for lighting.

With bare eyes(together only) I am able to get 100% letter recognition for 20/40 line, and with a few more blinks 100% of the 20/30 line.  Again this despite the ghosting issue.  The double vision has gotten a little better, with road signs being much less annoying to look at.   For near work, I am trying no lens on left (0 sph, 0 cyl), and +.50 sph, 0 cyl on the right.  i can get D2 out to approx. 26".  This gives me an approx. 1.50 (equiv. sph.) LEFT, and 1.00 sph on RIGHT for 20/20. 

I will probably wait until mid Nov. for next therapy glasses set.  In the distance glasses, I will still retain some cylinder amount to keep eye strain tolerable with distance (>10ft).

I also been experimenting with Accommodation Rock, and this seems to help reduce the double vision when my eyes get more tired.  It seems to do a bit of reset.  Also, for eye rest break, I have been using an eye mask (used by some at night to block out light) for 2 or 3 minutes at a time when eyes are fatigued.  This also helps do a reset, and is easier than palming.

All in all, progress goes on, hoping for 20/20 by next Feb/Mar. 

warnbd
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: warnbd on October 13, 2014, 09:57:04 AM
I am pleased you like the Electronic-Snellen.  I think it is better for most people - just to be consistent with good brightness.  I prefer the 20 foot Snellen, because I do not want to walk back and forth to press "display" - unless you can get someone to do that for you.

Otis,

I use  a wireless mouse, which I can hit left button to refresh the Snellen display, without having to walk back and forth to the computer.  I first position the mouse arrow on the display button and then walk away with the mouse. 
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: OtisBrown on October 20, 2014, 11:33:06 AM
Hi Warn,

Excellent suggestion.  I do the same thing - and it works up to 10 feet (with chart set for 10 feet).  But if I "jiggle" the mouse, I lose the pointer from "Display".

This is probably the best idea for your own visual-acuity testing.  You can select "one letter", and then just press the "display".  This is one test that can not be "cheated" - since the letters are random.

I understand that you are at 20/40 - which is a big step forward.  It means that you can avoid wearing the minus - in a reasonable way.

Are use using about a +1.5 diopter for most of your close work.  What do you think of that concept?



I am pleased you like the Electronic-Snellen.  I think it is better for most people - just to be consistent with good brightness.  I prefer the 20 foot Snellen, because I do not want to walk back and forth to press "display" - unless you can get someone to do that for you.

Otis,

I use  a wireless mouse, which I can hit left button to refresh the Snellen display, without having to walk back and forth to the computer.  I first position the mouse arrow on the display button and then walk away with the mouse.
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: warnbd on October 20, 2014, 01:33:48 PM
Hi Otis,

Regarding using the mouse, with a wireless mouse (like Logitech M325), you should not have to worry about jiggling the mousing and moving the pointer, as long as there is not a surface near the bottom of the mouse while holding it in your hand.

As stated in above post, I am currently using 0 sph/0cyl LEFT, and +.50 sph/0 cyl RIGHT for close work, which works for D2 of 26" for laptop.  Once that moves out to around 30", then I will go to next reading glasses of +.50 L, +1.0 R.

My 20/40 status is both eyes together, despite some ghosting.  I did have an interesting experience for the first time driving without glasses in sunlight.  I could read signs, but at times the sign text would have a sideways direction double image, which would then fuse together (not to be confused with monocular double image).  This is really the first time in 40 years that I am looking at distant signs while in a moving car without glasses.  I think my eyes/brain have to learn to track and fuse an image again.  I believe that glasses have a prismatic effect that my eyes have compensated for in converging onto a distant moving target.
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: OtisBrown on November 22, 2014, 10:06:44 AM
Hi Warnbd,

DRIVING WITH 20/40, WITH NO GLASSES, IN DAY LIGHT.  I agree with this, but of course you will need a "safety" -1.25 for driving at night.

PLUS LENS WEAR.  Caimanjosh, is using a strong plus for near (but he now has 20/15 vision).  A stronger plus -- for long-term "near" wear is always a good idea.

CHANGE OF STATUS.  Yes, it is slow.  But you  have the advantage that you can almost stop wearing a minus lens - and concentrate on the habit of putting a plus on for all close work.   That truly gets at the reason our eyes develop "negative status".

ASTIGMATISM;  My personal opinion, is that prescription is always excessive.  If less-than, -1.25 diopter, just convert to "Spherical Equivalent", and order glasses from Zenioptical for $7.

http://frauenfeldclinic.com/renes-curious-astigmatism-diagnosis-importance-understanding-astigmatism-correction/

Here is the reason.  Astigmatic measurements are so in-accurate, you might as well, "not bother".  I know I can get 20/20 from a minus (spherical) lens, I am not going to "worry" about astigmatism.  After all, we SEE with BOTH EYES OPEN.  The image is "over-laid" in our brains, and any slight imperfection, is taken out by that process.

I wish you all success - and that you can keep up this "preventive" process for the next six to nine months.  It truly takes that type of long-term resolve to get the results you seek.

You will get a lot of "advice" here, but the only person who matters, and will judge success (on your own Snellen) is  yourself.

In fact, the only person who "cares", is yourself.


Hi Otis,

Regarding using the mouse, with a wireless mouse (like Logitech M325), you should not have to worry about jiggling the mousing and moving the pointer, as long as there is not a surface near the bottom of the mouse while holding it in your hand.

As stated in above post, I am currently using 0 sph/0cyl LEFT, and +.50 sph/0 cyl RIGHT for close work, which works for D2 of 26" for laptop.  Once that moves out to around 30", then I will go to next reading glasses of +.50 L, +1.0 R.

My 20/40 status is both eyes together, despite some ghosting.  I did have an interesting experience for the first time driving without glasses in sunlight.  I could read signs, but at times the sign text would have a sideways direction double image, which would then fuse together (not to be confused with monocular double image).  This is really the first time in 40 years that I am looking at distant signs while in a moving car without glasses.  I think my eyes/brain have to learn to track and fuse an image again.  I believe that glasses have a prismatic effect that my eyes have compensated for in converging onto a distant moving target.
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: Alex_Myopic on November 22, 2014, 02:27:32 PM
After all, we SEE with BOTH EYES OPEN.  The image is "over-laid" in our brains, and any slight imperfection, is taken out by that process.

That's true for diplopia as well I believe to some degree.
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: formula16 on November 24, 2014, 07:38:38 PM
Hi
Firstly, congratulations on your progress! As someone who would like to do somethign similar, you give me inspiration. I have a few questions.
What is your training routine? Do you read computer text? How long do you do it per day?
Thanks!
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: OtisBrown on November 25, 2014, 07:19:38 AM
Hi Formula,

A number of people are working on successful prevention.  I would read about Todd's experience.

http://forum.gettingstronger.org/index.php/topic,1069.0.html

A good start - is to get your own Snellen here:

http://www.i-see.org/block_letter_eye_chart.pdf

Also - if you could post your current prescription - that would help.

Warnbd was very persistence, as you can see from this thread. He was very lucky to get to 20/40 in my opinion.  It can be done.



Hi
Firstly, congratulations on your progress! As someone who would like to do somethign similar, you give me inspiration. I have a few questions.
What is your training routine? Do you read computer text? How long do you do it per day?
Thanks!
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: warnbd on November 25, 2014, 10:53:09 AM
Formula16,

Most of the answers to your questions can be found in this thread in my posts.  Go through them in chronological order.  I primarily use a laptop as my text source to "push" print.  You must be committed for the long haul, using close work and distance as opportunities to challenge your eyes focusing.  The progress will be in direct proportion to the time you put in.  Also, it is key to take breaks, rest eyes, and try to get good sleep for recovery.  Also keep track of your progress, and get a good handle on self-measurement and an understanding of diopters and how to specify and buy glasses.  My primary way of determining where I am at is measuring the distance to my D2 location of my laptop screen.  I start out at approx. 20"/22" with new glasses, and eventually push this out the 30".  Then decreasing the prescriptions by approx. .50 diopters, start again. 

As far as where I am at right now, I am definitely 20/40 (bare eyes), with some days being able to read the 20/30 line.  I am getting 20/20(close to 20/15) with distance glasses (Left -2.0 D, +1.0 D cyl,   Right -.75, 0 cyl D )  Getting close to ordering 5th set of glasses. Ghosting still a challenge, but getting a little better (or less noticeable). 

If you look at Todd Becker's experience, he eliminated -2.0 diopters in about a year.  This shows this kind of progress is not a fluke, but one has to work at it.

warnbd
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: formula16 on November 26, 2014, 05:02:45 AM
Thanks for that. I especially wanted to know what your routine was, like how long you push printed each day, rest periods etc. Sorry if you already wrote that somewhere but I can't seem to find it!
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: Alex_Myopic on November 26, 2014, 09:39:36 AM
Quote
... the irregular astigmatism, when principal meridians are not perpendicular and refraction in meridian is not constant, can not be corrected by eye exercises. The regular with-the-rule astigmatism can be partly corrected by upward and downward eye movements. The regular against-the-rule astigmatism can be partly corrected by rightward and leftward eye movements. Smooth pursuit eye movements are more useful than the saccadic ones. The idea of this eye exercises is to decrease the corneal overrefraction in the steepest meridian by doing the cornea more flat in the steepest meridian to transform the toric cornea into the spheric one.

http://www.forbestvision.com/controlling-the-visual-axes/ (http://www.forbestvision.com/controlling-the-visual-axes/)

http://www.forbestvision.com/advanced-external-ocular-muscle-warm-up/ (http://www.forbestvision.com/advanced-external-ocular-muscle-warm-up/)
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: OtisBrown on November 26, 2014, 12:33:37 PM
Hi Alex,

There are many people who are terrified, when they are told they are, "astigmatic".  The reality is that this cylinder measurement is "all over the map".  It changes EVERY TIME YOU GO FOR AN "EXAM", as stated here.

http://frauenfeldclinic.com/renes-curious-astigmatism-diagnosis-importance-understanding-astigmatism-correction/

For astigmatism of less-than -1.5 diopters,  I always suggest that you convert to spherical-equivalent, and do it that way.  After all, we look at things with BOTH EYES, and our brains "take out" any astigmatic component.

As your Snellen begins to clear to 20/40 (as Warnbd) is demonstrating to  himself, that more "relaxed" eye, begins to loses its astigmatism.  I do not know if this is because the plus "relaxes" the eye, or what the reason is, but only Warnbd will see the results.

It is also true, that Todd Becker demonstrated the same thing to himself.

This is why I check, my refractive status - myself - with spherical lenses. 


Quote
... the irregular astigmatism, when principal meridians are not perpendicular and refraction in meridian is not constant, can not be corrected by eye exercises. The regular with-the-rule astigmatism can be partly corrected by upward and downward eye movements. The regular against-the-rule astigmatism can be partly corrected by rightward and leftward eye movements. Smooth pursuit eye movements are more useful than the saccadic ones. The idea of this eye exercises is to decrease the corneal overrefraction in the steepest meridian by doing the cornea more flat in the steepest meridian to transform the toric cornea into the spheric one.

http://www.forbestvision.com/controlling-the-visual-axes/ (http://www.forbestvision.com/controlling-the-visual-axes/)

http://www.forbestvision.com/advanced-external-ocular-muscle-warm-up/ (http://www.forbestvision.com/advanced-external-ocular-muscle-warm-up/)
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: Myoctim on November 29, 2014, 01:02:12 PM
Hi Alex,

There are many people who are terrified, when they are told they are, "astigmatic".  The reality is that this cylinder measurement is "all over the map".  It changes EVERY TIME YOU GO FOR AN "EXAM", as stated here.

http://frauenfeldclinic.com/renes-curious-astigmatism-diagnosis-importance-understanding-astigmatism-correction/


In reality Alex' comment is pretty confusing.

So let us convert that plus cyl. prescription to an equivalent minus cyl. prescription by adding the cyl. value to the sphere and flipping the cyl. sign and shifting the axis by 90°

Eye examination, optic shop A:
RE: -5,50 +0,50 85°   
LE: -6,00 +0,5 90°
                         
-5.5D + 0.5D cyl ->  -5.0D  -0.5D cyl. axis 85° + 90° = 175°
-6.0D + 0.5D cyl ->  -5.5D  -0.5D cyl. axis 90°+ 90° = 180° (0°)

Eye examination, optic shop B:
RE: -5.00 -0,50 160°
LE: -6,00 – 0,50 11°

except some axis degrees tolerance pretty much the same, isn't it?

So why do those prescription cancel out each other??


Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: Alex_Myopic on November 29, 2014, 03:12:52 PM
@Myoctim

Ι have heard in order to simplify a prescription to have a function  with myopia and astigmatism and end up with diopters only.

But with the above post analysis (is it a simplistic?) mathematically you cannot add diopters with cylinders even if you change the axis in the "equivalent result".

Another point is that the axis of astigmatism is the axis where the double images make one line in the astigmatic wheel not matter how blurry you see all the lines (->myopia "added"). So I don't believe A and B can be almost the same now matter how much diopters and cylinders since they give other axes of astigmatism which differ a lot (before you make your analysis).
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: Myoctim on November 30, 2014, 10:46:44 AM
@Myoctim

But with the above post analysis (is it a simplistic?) mathematically you cannot add diopters with cylinders even if you change the axis in the "equivalent result".

Another point is that the axis of astigmatism is the axis where the double images make one line in the astigmatic wheel not matter how blurry you see all the lines (->myopia "added"). So I don't believe A and B can be almost the same now matter how much diopters and cylinders since they give other axes of astigmatism which differ a lot (before you make your analysis).


Hi Alex_Myopic,

there are two ways to express an astigmatism prescription either the optimistic way by the sphere being the better meridian's value or
the pessimistic one where the sphere is the worse value (like prefered by forum member warnbd)

Quote
The difference between a + or - cylinder is all in how the prescription was written.
Ophthalmologists write thier Rx's in the + cyl form, while optometrists and the rest of the industry use the - cyl form.

So, an Rx from an Opthalmologist always has to be converted to the - form to be fabricated.. It is just 2 different ways of getting to
the same result.

For instance a lens that is - 1.00 - 0.50 X 90...is the same as - 1.50 + 0.50 X 180

source  https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081022063851AAJE9tU

Just try it out

http://www.optical4less.com/cylconverter/
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: Alex_Myopic on November 30, 2014, 02:59:28 PM
Hi Myoctim,
then mathematically, knowing for sure that we can add minus and plus lenses for myopia (because both are in diopters), in case A we have:
-5.5D + 0,50cyl 85°  =  -5.0D  -0.5 cyl. axis 175°<=>
<=>-5.5D + 0.5 cyl axis 85 +5D =  -5.0D  -0.5 cyl. axis 175° +5D
<=> -0.5D = -0.5 cyl. axis 175°  + (-0.5cyl) axis 85 
which means a spherical prescription can be an equal of the sum of two cylinder prescriptions when they are vertical to each other and all the same degree and sign. 
I don;t know for sure if this is truth.

Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: Myoctim on December 02, 2014, 04:25:33 PM
Hi Myoctim,
then mathematically, knowing for sure that we can add minus and plus lenses for myopia (because both are in diopters), in case A we have:
-5.5D + 0,50cyl 85°  =  -5.0D  -0.5 cyl. axis 175°<=>
<=>-5.5D + 0.5 cyl axis 85 +5D =  -5.0D  -0.5 cyl. axis 175° +5D
<=> -0.5D = -0.5 cyl. axis 175°  + (-0.5cyl) axis 85 
which means a spherical prescription can be an equal of the sum of two cylinder prescriptions when they are vertical to each other and all the same degree and sign. 
I don;t know for sure if this is truth.

Hi Alex_Myopic,

that sum only correspondents to a myope's worst meridian's refractive state at a -cyl. Rx respectively his best at a +cyl. Rx.

For getting a better idea about the astigmatic effect let's assume a -1D 0D cyl. and a -1D  -1Dx90 cyl. myope both approaching an
astigmatism sun/wheel.

If the 0D cyl. guy reaches the 1m distance to the chart he now can see all the radials pretty bold and sharp because for him they
all are at the same focal plane.

Unfortunately that's not the case if there also is an astigmatic refractive error.
At the same 1m distance a 90°cyl. person only gets the horizontal line bold (or a 180°astig.guy the vertical radial) while all others
appear increasingly grayish and blured (and probably as it's for me the vertical radials even are double).

Approaching a bit further now also the next radial gets bold but when focusing on it the previous now looses a bit of its former
boldness because for an astigmatic person each radial is at a separate focal plane.

So there is no way to get all radials bold at the same time.
The only trick without using a cyl. lens is the spherical equivalent, focusing at the median focal plane between the two principal
astigmatic meridians -1D and -2D (-1D + -1D cyl) where the radials are not bold but all at the same gray tone.

BTW, that point also is called the point of least confusion because here now the astigmatic distortion is reduced to a small blur
circle and at low astigmatism the difference to a perfect focal point by a cyl.lens is negligible.


Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: Alex_Myopic on December 03, 2014, 12:25:10 PM
Thanks for the answer Myoctim.
So the axis of astigmatism is +90 the axis of most bold line in the wheel.

It looks like in geometry two vertical cylinders might make a sphere (all the same radius) so we might have +90 degrees change in the astigmatism part when taking the equivalent when in myopia and astigmatism case.

***********************

I learned some months ago that eyes have an "auto-servomechanism" in order to stay "parallel to the horizon" or better say send images
to the brain that are always tuned with the horizon. In other words, tilt your head rightwards or leftwards in front of a mirror and you will see (especially from the veins of the eyeball) that the oblique muscles move the eyeball in relation to the head to keep it "parallel to the horizon". So when we tilt our heads our glasses don't move in relation to the head so the axis of astigmatism has more and more error in relation to the true axis.

If someone suspects the solution, I would never wear contact lenses because of frequent inflammations and infections (and not breathing well the tissue).


Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: Myoctim on December 07, 2014, 04:48:52 PM

It looks like in geometry two vertical cylinders might make a sphere (all the same radius)

Two rectangular cyl. lenses would complement each other to a spherical lens.
We can see it when looking at the formula describing the refractive power of a cyl. lens  D = D cyl. (sin axis)²

So they add up to D total = Dcyl1 (sin x)² + Dcyl2 ((sin x + 90°))²

Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: warnbd on January 07, 2015, 11:33:28 AM
My Status after 1 year of Optical rehabilitation:

It has been 1 year since I started the process promoted by this forum.  My current 20/20 prescription is -1.25 sph (left), -.75 sph (right).  With snellen, I can occasionally read 100% of 20/30 line (bare eyes), but I still say that I am at a 20/40 state.  When the sun is direct during daylight, I will drive without glasses.  I am now using my 5th set of Zennioptical glasses, with an undercorrected prescription of -1.25 sph, +.75 cyl L,  -.50 sph (0 cyl) R for distance viewing.  Any future glasses will have no cylinder component. Ghosting still there, but slowly improving.   

My progress has slowed over the last 2 months due less focus work on average, and inadequate sleep due to life's stresses recently.  I still am committed to my goals, as I am encouraged to see where I started, 
-4.75 sph,, +2.75 cyl L,  -3.50 sph, +1.75 cyl R.   

I think the keys for this to work are:

Putting in the time of focus pushing(pulling)
Taking breaks from the focus work
Good sleep for recovery
Good nutrition to support eye rebuilding
Some eye stretching (good for astigmatism)
Document your progress (D2 length, Snellen)

I would also recommend looking at the recent posts of CapitalPrince, as the points made are valid.  Intentful focusing, moving the focal plane in and out.  I also have found that rotating the head side to side a few degrees helps in stimulating the auto focusing.  Sometimes when you are staring at some blur, the eye muscles seem to paralyze.  By moving one's head, the muscles are forced to be flexing.  This also changes the distance from text plane to each individual eye a bit, without having to move the text closer and further away.

Good luck to all 
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: CapitalPrince on January 07, 2015, 03:15:23 PM
hey warnbd

i like how you mentioned that the eye muscles seemed to paralyze. I do experience that as well. Remember how Bates recommended the "long swing" and "the sway"? I guess one can apply those techniques to the plus (at near by moving the head slightly) like you said.

summary of techniques when working at the blur with the plus
-moving text in and out of blur
-moving head slowly from side to side (a few degrees)
-open eyes wide, relax, blink (CRB)
-trace the words
-look at he smallest detail in each letter, move eyes rapidly
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: OtisBrown on January 07, 2015, 07:18:00 PM
Hi Warnbd,

WOW - that is a incredible success - for one year of effort.  Here is my supportive commentary:

Warn> My Status after 1 year of Optical rehabilitation:

Warn> It has been 1 year since I started the process promoted by this forum.  My current 20/20 prescription is -1.25 sph (left), -.75 sph (right).  With snellen, I can occasionally read 100% of 20/30 line (bare eyes), but I still say that I am at a 20/40 state.

Otis> It is true that "in side" you will be reading 20/30.  Outside, due to "depth of field" you will  have 20/20.  Also, 20/30 passes the DMV test. But, like me, we are cautious.

Otis>  I also like direct, objective reading of my own consistent bright Snellen, for consistency. That is the only real way to be confident of your own results.  Also, the DMV requires both eyes to be open, so you gain the "better eye" reading.  That "last diopter" is the hardest, and longest.  But you have the correct idea, and I think you will achieve what Todd obtained, 20/20 with both eyes open.  Thanks for posting - it encourages all of us on Todd's site.


My Status after 1 year of Optical rehabilitation:

It has been 1 year since I started the process promoted by this forum.  My current 20/20 prescription is -1.25 sph (left), -.75 sph (right).  With snellen, I can occasionally read 100% of 20/30 line (bare eyes), but I still say that I am at a 20/40 state.  When the sun is direct during daylight, I will drive without glasses.  I am now using my 5th set of Zennioptical glasses, with an undercorrected prescription of -1.25 sph, +.75 cyl L,  -.50 sph (0 cyl) R for distance viewing.  Any future glasses will have no cylinder component. Ghosting still there, but slowly improving.   

My progress has slowed over the last 2 months due less focus work on average, and inadequate sleep due to life's stresses recently.  I still am committed to my goals, as I am encouraged to see where I started, 
-4.75 sph,, +2.75 cyl L,  -3.50 sph, +1.75 cyl R.   

I think the keys for this to work are:

Putting in the time of focus pushing(pulling)
Taking breaks from the focus work
Good sleep for recovery
Good nutrition to support eye rebuilding
Some eye stretching (good for astigmatism)
Document your progress (D2 length, Snellen)

I would also recommend looking at the recent posts of CapitalPrince, as the points made are valid.  Intentful focusing, moving the focal plane in and out.  I also have found that rotating the head side to side a few degrees helps in stimulating the auto focusing.  Sometimes when you are staring at some blur, the eye muscles seem to paralyze.  By moving one's head, the muscles are forced to be flexing.  This also changes the distance from text plane to each individual eye a bit, without having to move the text closer and further away.

Good luck to all
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: warnbd on January 08, 2015, 07:50:01 AM
Jim

I am just starting with a 5th set of glasses (distance and reading).  Therefore on average, I used the previous 4 sets for approx. 3 months each.  Each time I picked prescriptions that would place my D2 at a desired distance.  With a new prescription, I try for approx. 20-22" for D2 (for near work, focus pushing).  Then as time goes on, eventually the D2 gets out to 29-32".  When this happens I know its time to order new glasses, this is approx. .50 diopter change.  This distance works for my laptop, which is my primary near work text medium.  If one was using paper material, like a book, this would be closer and need a more plus direction prescription. 

It's not so much that it is a reduced prescription is the trick, but that it is as much as possible to be challenging your focusing in the D1-D2 area.  If one is more comfortable at 40" distance from reading material, then prescription must reflect that.  It's putting as much time as you can in D1-D2 zone, day after day, that creates the stress signal for whatever is actually changing, axial length, ciliary, etc.  (of course with breaks, overdoing it is counterproductive).

For distance glasses, I try for a prescription that is approx. .50 D under-corrected from what I need to get 20/20 line on my on-line Snellen.  More than this is too much for driving etc.  With this .50 D under, I can do some focus-pulling (what I call pulling, as I can't "push" the viewed object away). A TV that is 12-13 ft away works good for this.  Or if I am driving, I look at signs, license plates, etc., trying to bring them into focus.  Of course when driving, anything will eventually come into focus as you approach it at speed. 

Another challenge has been the astigmatism component.  I kept inching it down, until I got ahead of the rate of  cylinder improvement.  The cylinder of course affects the spherical, which makes it tricky to get the right prescription for the desired D2 distance. 

I think the rate of progress is directly related to the percentage of time spent when you challenge your focusing (near or distance).  Spending 10 minutes here, and later another 10 minutes there, is not enough to create the hormesis bias, or at best very slow progress.  Becoming more myopic over time is similar in that with enough time everyday where your lens is focused always  near its extreme, the stress is promoting eye changes in an undesired direction. 
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: CapitalPrince on January 12, 2015, 07:23:08 AM
look back when you became myopic. You would use your eyes at the nearpoint for long periods of time, several hours a day. Sometimes you would notice your vision very blurry after you did several hours of close work. After some rest and a night's sleep. the vision would go back to normal again.

After you did this for several weeks/months/years, you notice vision to be permanently blurry and no amount of rest could reset your vision.
It's the same thing trying to improve your vision.


Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: warnbd on January 12, 2015, 09:01:05 AM
JimBoston,

My experience is that my vision is the best in the morning, as the eyes have gotten rest in the night.  Then throughout the day, as vision is used, as active focusing is done, my vision degrades by approx. .25 D due to strain on ciliary and ocular muscles. I never get increasing better vision as day goes on like you are describing.  I also do not see any kind of "locked-in" improvement in a day as you describe.  A month or more can go by without noticeable improvement.  If AL is shortening, I would think it is a slow longer term process. When I hear someone saying they can see improvement in a day, I get skeptical of what they are doing. 

I have experienced periods of many consecutive days where I have overdone the active focusing, straining the ciliary. This either stagnates any progress, and even can appear to cause lost ground (.25 D).  Then, realizing this, I back off and rest eyes more. With 2 or 3 days of recovery, I can then see a noticeable improvement, not because the AL suddenly jumped, but that the rest/recovery allowed the ciliary to flatten the lens fully.  This may give one the feeling of a sudden jump, but it is a recovery event.  My feeling is that AL shortening is a long term, slow process.  Supposing one can improve 2 diopter in a year, that is .0054 diopter change per day.  I can not see how anyone can perceive a .0054 D change.

 I am not sure about your question about vision stability.  As I have said, my acuity degrades as the day goes on typically, but I do not characterize that as a vision instability. 
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: CapitalPrince on January 12, 2015, 09:36:37 AM
hi warnbd,

do you notice any differences print pushing with computer vs book? for me the book does not work so well.

Also, for the longest time, my morning visual acuity was horrendous. Like when i woke up i had serious amounts of blur, my vision would be 20/40 or less, and had the "weird blinking problem". After i wash my face, do some palming, do some "exercises" my vision would be better throughout the day and stay that way.
j
Since Dec 20-something that problem was gone. My morning visual acuity is excellent, maybe perceptually less. Throughout the day it doesn't change noticeable. My vision is 20/20 bright snellen (not sunlight). 20/25-20/30, in dim lighting.
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: CapitalPrince on January 13, 2015, 12:33:44 AM
hey jimboston,

i think your morning visual acuity will improve after few months print pushing with the plus. I experienced the terrible morning acuity problem, but that went away.

 We all get too caught up in the details (including myself), but just do what Otis suggests. take a plus (or bifocal/progressive), find a good book, and push print. You need to do this for hours a day (todd in his lecture said 2-4 hours a day). But do remember it is not the "plus" that causes the improvement, its the "active focus".

Again, if you think about it, its *very difficult* to make the eyes nearsighted. It takes sustained nearpoint stress hours a day and months/years. Very few people 100 years ago are myopic Its difficult to say when improvements "lock in". that would be like watching the grass grow and asking when does it growth "lock in".
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: CapitalPrince on January 13, 2015, 12:34:58 AM
hey jimboston,

i think your morning visual acuity will improve after few months print pushing with the plus. I experienced the terrible morning acuity problem, but that went away.

 We all get too caught up in the details (including myself), but just do what Otis suggests. take a plus (or bifocal/progressive), find a good book, and push print. You need to do this for hours a day (todd in his lecture said 2-4 hours a day). But do remember it is not the "plus" that causes the improvement, its the "active focus".

Again, if you think about it, its *very difficult* to make the eyes nearsighted. It takes sustained nearpoint stress hours a day and months/years. Very few people 100 years ago are myopic Its difficult to say when improvements "lock in". that would be like watching the grass grow and asking when the growth "locks in".
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: CapitalPrince on January 13, 2015, 12:36:18 AM

hey jimboston,

i think your morning visual acuity will improve after few months print pushing with the plus. I experienced the terrible morning acuity problem, but that went away.

 We all get too caught up in the details (including myself), but just do what Otis suggests. take a plus (or bifocal/progressive), find a good book, and push print. You need to do this for hours a day (todd in his lecture said 2-4 hours a day). But do remember it is not the "plus" that causes the improvement, its the "active focus".

Again, if you think about it, its *very difficult* to make the eyes nearsighted. It takes sustained nearpoint stress hours a day and months/years. Very few people 100 years ago are myopic Its difficult to say when improvements "lock in". that would be like watching the grass grow and asking when the growth "locks in".

Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: warnbd on March 01, 2015, 09:04:39 AM

hey jimboston,

i think your morning visual acuity will improve after few months print pushing with the plus. I experienced the terrible morning acuity problem, but that went away.

 We all get too caught up in the details (including myself), but just do what Otis suggests. take a plus (or bifocal/progressive), find a good book, and push print. You need to do this for hours a day (todd in his lecture said 2-4 hours a day). But do remember it is not the "plus" that causes the improvement, its the "active focus".

Again, if you think about it, its *very difficult* to make the eyes nearsighted. It takes sustained nearpoint stress hours a day and months/years. Very few people 100 years ago are myopic Its difficult to say when improvements "lock in". that would be like watching the grass grow and asking when the growth "locks in".

I agree that I could be picky, but the aftersleep degradation is troubling, because you have to work up from it again and again. Since it is the worst measurement of the day, it is a reliable baseline for progress. It could be sleep position or lacrimation that is the issue, but I find it very frustrating that the first 30-60 minutes of the day have been pretty much constant without any improvement, regardless of gains during the day. Hopefully, the morning blur will disappear as you state, but so far it has always returned me back to baseline for the past 4-5 months with many hours of edge-of-blur work/day.

Hi JimBoston,

I read the recent posts in this thread more carefully and I wanted to clarify my points.  I would agreed that one's vision changes during the day and are perceptible.  For you, it sounds like mid-morning is where you have the best acuity.  I think that should be when you evaluate your state.  My point is that in a 24 hour period, the progress (of 2 diopter per year) would not be perceptible from one mid-morning to another mid-morning.  Also my primary way of self-measurement is tracking my D1/D2 distance, not the Snellen.  As my D2 distance slowly becomes longer, there is a point where I know it is time for new lenses.

Progress Update:

As the originator of this thread, it is time for another progress update from me.  With bare eyes I am consistently getting 100% of reading the 20/30 line (with approx. 75% of the 20/25 line) using the on-line chart on my laptop.  My ghost imaging is slowly getting better, a longer term project I think.  I also can now read the 20/20 line with my current distance glasses(left -1.0 D sph, right -.50 D sph).  I am encountering the slow down of progress in the last diopter that people talk about.  However, a big factor for me in recent 4 months is that I have not been able to put in very much dedicated time doing edge of blur training.  All in all, still very satisfied in going from 20/400 to 20/30 in 14 months. 
Title: Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
Post by: ZC on March 04, 2015, 06:45:23 AM
warnbd,

Your progress is inspiring. 20/25 is quite an accomplishment. Congratulations!

Thank you for documenting your methods and and your results.