Author Topic: Hi guys!  (Read 4131 times)

Offline gekonus

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Hi guys!
« on: September 22, 2014, 06:18:09 AM »
Hello ! :)

I started being myopic at around the age of 14, I had a really mild myopia back then but it got a bit worse and better as years passed. Im now 19, and my prescription is -1L -0.75R
I tried doing the bates method but it really had no success for me, palming, swings and what else did literally nothing, maybe some temporary improvements but thats it. I then started to realize that I might have axial myopia and not ciliary/psuedo myopia (Ive been playing the computer for 8-10 hours a day straight back then. almost everyday with barerly any distance viewing, that is why I assume I have axial myopia, because as far as I know, psuedo myopia isnt really difficult to reverse). I barerly use my glasses.
Recently I bought a pair of +1.5D glasses and Im using them while Im at the computer (2-5 hours a day)
and I really wanted to know if this is going to work for me.. Im already using the plus for about 10 days, but Im a bit afraid that reversing even a 0.25D will take me a REALLY LONG time..

Im doing more far work since Im in military but still, improvements dont seem to be permanent, and whats even more discouraging is the difference between day and night vision. After about 5Pm my vision starts to get crappy.

My V/A is about 20/45 Avg on daylight, and around 20/70 or even worse in the evening I guess.

Is this really gonna take me about a year to reverse only a -1D? Thats so discouraging..

Help would be appreciated! :)

Offline OtisBrown

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Re: Hi guys!
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2014, 06:08:08 AM »
Hi Gek,

We all encounter Bates. It all seems so easy.  Just exercise, and you will get your naked eye 20/20 back.  The problem is this - it does not work.

Gek>  I tried doing the bates method but it really had no success for me, palming, swings and what else did literally nothing, maybe some temporary improvements but thats it. I then started to realize that I might have axial myopia and not ciliary/psuedo myopia (Ive been playing the computer for 8-10 hours a day straight back then. almost everyday with barerly any distance viewing, that is why I assume I have axial myopia, because as far as I know, psuedo myopia isnt really difficult to reverse). I barerly use my glasses.

Gek>  Recently I bought a pair of +1.5D glasses and Im using them while Im at the computer (2-5 hours a day)
and I really wanted to know if this is going to work for me..

Otis>  You have a mild prescription.  For this work correctly, you should down-load a Snellen chart, and start finding out.  The legal standard is 20/40, not 20/20.  If you can exceed the 20/40 line at this point - that is a good start.  Plus-prevention means an interaction of you with your own Snellen chart - for the long-term.  It means taking personal responsibility to trust your own competence.

Gek> Im already using the plus for about 10 days, but Im a bit afraid that reversing even a 0.25D will take me a REALLY LONG time..

Otis> I monitor my own Snellen. An OD can not do this for you.  I get readings from 20/20 to 20/15, thus no one reading can be accurate.

Otis> I think we should measure, not in 1/4 diopter changes, but in Snellen reading improvement.  (I do recommend that a serious person obtain some lenses for $14, to do additional refractive checking.

Otis>  I think you can get to the 20/25 to 20/18 range -- but it does require long-term effort. I will post the Snellen chart in due course.





Hello ! :)

I started being myopic at around the age of 14, I had a really mild myopia back then but it got a bit worse and better as years passed. Im now 19, and my prescription is -1L -0.75R
I tried doing the bates method but it really had no success for me, palming, swings and what else did literally nothing, maybe some temporary improvements but thats it. I then started to realize that I might have axial myopia and not ciliary/psuedo myopia (Ive been playing the computer for 8-10 hours a day straight back then. almost everyday with barerly any distance viewing, that is why I assume I have axial myopia, because as far as I know, psuedo myopia isnt really difficult to reverse). I barerly use my glasses.
Recently I bought a pair of +1.5D glasses and Im using them while Im at the computer (2-5 hours a day)
and I really wanted to know if this is going to work for me.. Im already using the plus for about 10 days, but Im a bit afraid that reversing even a 0.25D will take me a REALLY LONG time..

Im doing more far work since Im in military but still, improvements dont seem to be permanent, and whats even more discouraging is the difference between day and night vision. After about 5Pm my vision starts to get crappy.

My V/A is about 20/45 Avg on daylight, and around 20/70 or even worse in the evening I guess.

Is this really gonna take me about a year to reverse only a -1D? Thats so discouraging..

Help would be appreciated! :)
« Last Edit: September 27, 2014, 03:57:59 AM by OtisBrown »

Offline OtisBrown

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Re: Hi guys!
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2014, 06:14:36 AM »
He Gek,

Source of Snellen charts.

http://www.i-see.org/block_letter_eye_chart.pdf

Here is a chart that Warn is using.  Just click here, and then on "Display" several times.

http://www.smbs.buffalo.edu/oph/ped/IVAC/IVAC.html

I always believe in leadership - by doing it yourself.  Here is a video on the chart I have set up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgUkoSSgVOs&list=UUo7v7iOfsapIH0o51RWIwgw

Pilots do manage to convince themselves of the necessity of checking their own Snellen, and wearing the plus, when their vision starts "down" in a four year college.

But this type of work is like going on a "diet", where you must do your own checking.  The entire problem is a matter of your insights and self-motivation.

Offline gekonus

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Re: Hi guys!
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2014, 06:28:17 AM »
Hehe thats a nice program Otis. I checked myself from 2 meters and I can BARERLY see the 20/40 line, which means Im a bit worse than 20/40, probably between 20/40 to 20/50

Offline OtisBrown

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Re: Hi guys!
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2014, 09:17:22 AM »
Hi Gek,

Why I use a bright light on my Snellen.  Why I do not rely on an OD for refractive measurements.  (I trust them for medical checking, but never for a refraction - I do that myself - and recommend it for those who are serious about true prevention).

Your check of approximately 20/40, is a first step.  I know it casual at first.  But I would strongly recommend you use the full Snellen at 20 feet with a bright light on it.

The reasons are this:

1) You need a standard you can trust and believe.
2) You need to see objective Snellen-clearing to 20/30 (to always pass the DMV).
3) You need to wear the +1.5 for all close work, (and exercise) for the next six months - just to begin the clear the 20/30 line (and maybe better).
(This is profoundly difficult - until you work out the reason it is necessary.)
4) This requires great motivation, and self-interest.  No OD can help you with this.  (The feel that recovery is IMPOSSIBLE.  I just agree that it is indeed difficult.)
5) If you do accomplish that much - then I can help you further.  (Or you will believe in your own ability and success.)
6) Pilots will do this, because they over-come their fear of wearing the plus  - and they CHECK on that bright Snellen personally.  They do not rely on an OD to do that.
7) As Todd states it - this is like a "diet", in that no one can do it for you -  you must do it for yourself.

What we see, when we read the Snellen objectively, is not "just one line", but the 20/50 line (all letters) 20/40 (1/2 letters), 20/30, (see two letters).

You must four an "average judgement", for the next six months. Then I would expect your average reading to begin to get to 20/40 to 20/20 range - but always with that spread.  But is must always be with the same Snellen.  In darkness - you do not get a reading that is of value.



Hehe thats a nice program Otis. I checked myself from 2 meters and I can BARERLY see the 20/40 line, which means Im a bit worse than 20/40, probably between 20/40 to 20/50
« Last Edit: September 25, 2014, 05:06:06 PM by OtisBrown »

Offline gekonus

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Re: Hi guys!
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2014, 07:42:43 AM »
Wait, I dont think I understand the print pushing completely..

Is it enough to read texts on the edge of blur? Or do you really have to move your head back and forth between edge of focus and the edge of blur?

Offline OtisBrown

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Re: Hi guys!
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2014, 08:21:28 AM »
Hi Gek,

This concept come from watching children in their "reading habits".  The concept also develops from study of the effect that an over-prescribed minus lens always has on the natural eye.  There is a great deal of logic to this situation - but it takes time to work it out.

For an adult, who can take and follow instructions (and has systematic motivation, and checks his own Snellen), the concept of "print pushing", while wearing a +1.5 diopter lens, is to look though the plus, and PUSH the work away, perhaps to 25 inches, where it is so blurred you can not read it, and then "pull in" until it just become "readable".  (Probably about 20 inches for you, given you are slightly nearsighted.)

The is to prevent the "bad habit" of "leaning forward" while reading.  Doing that (as a bad habit) simply and completely CANCELS OUT the entire reason and purpose of wearing a plus - in the first place.

Todd Becker, describes this in more detail as "D1 and D2".

The purpose of this plus-lens print pushing, is to get the work (optically) as far away as possible.  The idea is that if we lived, "in the open", we would never have entered in to nearsightedness - in the first place.  (Eskimo studies prove this point.)

We can not "escape" our, "modern reading world", but we can get rid of the EFFECT of long-term close work on our natural eyes.

http://myopiafree.i-see.org/SaveEye.html

Tragically, everyone hates the idea of plus-prevention, because they see it as an un-necessary intrusion in their lives.


Wait, I dont think I understand the print pushing completely..

Is it enough to read texts on the edge of blur? Or do you really have to move your head back and forth between edge of focus and the edge of blur?
« Last Edit: September 26, 2014, 10:27:27 AM by OtisBrown »

Offline gekonus

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Re: Hi guys!
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2014, 10:13:47 PM »
Well then, if that is the case then its really not comfortable to do it.. especially when on the computer, because I just need to move my head back and forth (I'll definately won't push my monitor back and forth..)


Btw, just wanted you to know, -1D is definately not 20/40, more like 20/50. my better eye is -0.75 and I cant even see 20/40 with it, I cant even see 20/40 with both eyes open (except if the lights are good)
« Last Edit: September 26, 2014, 10:26:43 PM by gekonus »

Offline OtisBrown

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Re: Hi guys!
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2014, 03:49:46 AM »
Hi Gek,

Subject:  Who defines what is comfortable?

Item:  You will get endless advice on how something should be done.  I tend to not use the word, "exercise", but I do not object to others using the word.

Item:  Self-use of a plus is indeed an intrusion in your life.  It is indeed easy to obtain the plus, and "try it out".  But, what is difficult, is to look at the references I provided, (kids with nose close to page), and get the idea that they should be taught to not do that.  We all know that kids will not accept any advice of that nature.

You are right, there is no EXACT relationship between your self-measured visual acuity, and the amount of minus required to give you 20/20.  This is why I suggest the person obtain his own minus lens - to do this critical check himself.  This is part of a self-learning process, where you are given full control of the preventive process - if you wish to have that degree of control.

Do some people SLOWLY get out of it?  Personally, I do not know, because I never know the person involved with it - except for Todd, my immediate relatives, and pilots.  Most people get bored with the concept, and like "diets" quit - after a week or so.  That ends the possibility of prevention for them at that point.

No optometrist can ever do this for you - they know it, and I think you know it.  You have an educated choice to make.  The minus is profoundly easy, and few people are going to take any "preventive" effort seriously.   I understand that idea - perfectly. 

In fact, Dr. Prentice, made the final statement on this issue:

     "Similar results have been attained in 34 like cases;

     ...but the process is very tedious for the patients, and
unless their understanding is clear on the subject, it is almost
impossible to induce them to undergo the trial."

Otis>  In fact, you can not say that prevention by a plus - is a medical issue.  What has developed over the last 50 years, is the fact that our eyes go down at a steady rate of -1/2 diopter per year, if we choose to not take prevention seriously.

Otis>  But that is your issue to resolve.  People in medicine, do not have a responsibility to help you, for the reason that Dr. Prentice stated.  But that just makes it an issue for your education and intelligence to resolve.  This is why I do not bother attempting to involve medical people in this type of choice you will be making. 

Otis> If you demand comfort, then take my advice - do not bother with any preventive work.





Well then, if that is the case then its really not comfortable to do it.. especially when on the computer, because I just need to move my head back and forth (I'll definately won't push my monitor back and forth..)


Btw, just wanted you to know, -1D is definately not 20/40, more like 20/50. my better eye is -0.75 and I cant even see 20/40 with it, I cant even see 20/40 with both eyes open (except if the lights are good)
« Last Edit: September 27, 2014, 05:47:11 AM by OtisBrown »

Offline gekonus

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Re: Hi guys!
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2014, 06:49:26 AM »
Hmm.. What if my current lenses (-1  -0,75 ) get me to 20/15 most of the time? does that mean I should get weaker ones?

Offline OtisBrown

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Re: Hi guys!
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2014, 07:01:11 AM »
Hi Gek,

This is a great question -- and you will have to resolve this issue for yourself.  I can only SUGGEST what *I* would do - but I am not *you*.

Your OD always over-prescribes in "good faith".  I never question that issue.  I just think it is a "poor idea", because of the profound and proven "adverse" effect a minus lens always has on all natural eyes.

It if were me, consistent with doing better-than 20/40, I would avoid wearing a minus lens - at all.  (I would get $7 minus from Zennioptical, and keep them IN MY CAR -- and use it ONLY when driving the car.  But I agree, wearing a strong minus all the time is always, comforting.)

But as you know, I read the 20/20 line on my Snellen, and find the wearing a "plus" as I type this - very comfortable.

Since this subject is no longer "medical" or a medical discussion, we can look at how the natural eye changes when you wear a strong minus all the time.

http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~wildsoet/images/neg_lens_induce_myopia.swf

Is that what you want to develop for your long-term vision.  Remember what Dr. Prentice said about this issue.

For me, I accept that Dr. Prentice was totally correct, and the minus should be avoided -- consistent with objectively passing the 20/40 line. This is the scientific fact and reason, but never a "medical reason".

But then, if you find discomfort in wearing a plus, then please do not wear it.  It makes no difference to me what you decide to do.

Prevention is an educated choice, never a guarantee.  Even by what I say, it is damn difficult.

But I CHOOSE to wear the plus, and verify my Snellen, objectively.


Hmm.. What if my current lenses (-1  -0,75 ) get me to 20/15 most of the time? does that mean I should get weaker ones?
« Last Edit: September 27, 2014, 07:31:12 AM by OtisBrown »

Offline gekonus

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Re: Hi guys!
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2014, 07:28:45 AM »
Im not really afraid of the plus, in fact, I use it for many hours a day, even when writing these posts, or playing the computer.
I NEVER use my minus except for driving, and MAYBE if I go to a movie, but thats very very rare.
Im just afraid that maybe even for driving only, a correction of 20/16 is a bit too strong and will slow down my progress

Offline OtisBrown

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Re: Hi guys!
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2014, 07:42:01 AM »
Hi Gek,

Most of what I do, is to get my own truth about this profoundly difficult issue.  The statement by Dr. Prentice convinced me that no OD could help me or you with this issue.  The responsibility must be totally personal -- in my opinion.

For myself - I insist on being legal, and always passing the required 20/40 line - objectively.  I also measure my own refractive state myself, to avoid over-prescription.  Obviously, wearing an over-prescribed minus lens, for an hour at night, will not have much of an effect.

The problem with most people, is that they are told by an OD, that the minus has no "secondary, and adverse effect".  That is a political statement, made to convince you that wearing a strong minus all the time is safe.  Science says the opposite.

You mention progress.  You are wise to avoid the minus (most of the time), and "squint" when necessary.  I would encourage you to continue your personal resolve, by ordering your own test lenses, and doing these measurements yourself.  Most people do not know what a "diopter" is, or what a minus or plus lens is, or what it even looks like.  I would want that education, and, decide myself what I wanted, "in my life", and avoid any disputes with any medical person. 

As far as results are concerned - you will have to see them  yourself.  They are very slow to develop - even by my standards.

But assuming you can accept Dr. Prentice's standard, and wear the plus almost all the time for ALL near work, I would expect you to begin to verify your own home-Snellen, at better-than 20/40 in about three to six months.

But that assumes you are intense about this issue.  But I never know about anyone posting here.


Im not really afraid of the plus, in fact, I use it for many hours a day, even when writing these posts, or playing the computer.
I NEVER use my minus except for driving, and MAYBE if I go to a movie, but thats very very rare.
Im just afraid that maybe even for driving only, a correction of 20/16 is a bit too strong and will slow down my progress
« Last Edit: September 27, 2014, 07:44:36 AM by OtisBrown »

Offline Alex_Myopic

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Re: Hi guys!
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2014, 08:36:32 AM »
@gekonus

I didn't understand if your problem is that you want to move your head back and forth when reading on the monitor (something rare) or the opposite. With plus you don't have to do that but only a few times to find the edge of focus zone. Then if you want you can move your head closer for a few minutes if you want but if you stay at close distance for long time you cancels out the whole purpose of plus.

One diopter is low myopia and most people have high rate of success in the beginning. In Di' Angelis book and in this forum the plus use is explained in more detail sa as in Mr Brown's videos in youtube.

Offline gekonus

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Re: Hi guys!
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2014, 08:47:48 AM »
@gekonus

I didn't understand if your problem is that you want to move your head back and forth when reading on the monitor (something rare) or the opposite. With plus you don't have to do that but only a few times to find the edge of focus zone. Then if you want you can move your head closer for a few minutes if you want but if you stay at close distance for long time you cancels out the whole purpose of plus.

One diopter is low myopia and most people have high rate of success in the beginning. In Di' Angelis book and in this forum the plus use is explained in more detail sa as in Mr Brown's videos in youtube.

What I said is that at the beginning I just read texts on the edge of blur while using the plus. However I then realized that you have to really "PUSH" what you're reading back and forth, between the edge of focus and the edge of blur. So if you wanna PUSH, you gotta move your head back and forth when reading something on the computer