Author Topic: Response to Hans' Questions, at 20/30.  (Read 1896 times)

Offline OtisBrown

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Response to Hans' Questions, at 20/30.
« on: November 07, 2014, 05:50:30 PM »
Hi Hans,

SUMMARY STATEMENT OF THE DIFFICULTIES OF PREVENTION  -- UNDER YOUR CONTROL.

I think that "true prevention", is indeed very difficult - for most of us.  But, for yourself, I truly believe it is possible.  There are a lot of misconceptions published (and believed) in "medical circles", and it is difficult for me, or you to deal with them.  That is a very large problem -- and requires a lot of thought to deal with them.

It is very important that you judge that your efforts are correct as science.  There is a lot of confirmation, in science, that the eye  is (sadly) highly responsive to a "negative environment", that our modern society forces on us.  I think you are developing the wisdom to understand that issue -- for your own personal advantage.

The quality of a scientists -- is to be objective.  It is his quality, to make objective measurements of your own visual acuity on your brightly-lit Snellen.  For Germany, you must exceed the 20/30 line.  It is reasonable to quit wearing any minus when you achieve that result.

But to do better, you must continue to wear the plus on a regular basis.  There are people who will object to protecting their distant vision - by wearing a plus for near.  It is because they do not understand the science that supports the need for plus prevention, and you can not prescribe it.  That is where your growing personal education, in science and engineering can help you.

For me, wearing the plus, is like, "brushing my teeth on a regular basis".  Can I prove that it is necessary?  No I can not.  But I agree, that wearing a plus (for near) is like that.  You must trust yourself, and future learning about this issue, to take that responsibility.  This is why you must be 18 years old, and entering a four year college - to do it.

The reason, is that if you were a "casual" person at age 26 years ( out of school ), I could not tell you that your refractive state will continue "negative" at a rate of -1/2 diopter per year - for each year in school, for the next six years.

But I can tell you that - because it is the truth.

That means, to me, that there can't be any cure - at all.  It also means that after you begin to see 20/20, objectively, you must continue with the plus.

Thus people who claim and "cure", are making a mistake.  But with the wisdom to face facts, you would know enough, to re-start with the plus, when you quit wearing it - for some time.

I assume, that you will continue with the plus, and will eventually see objective 20/20, and will continue with the plus for a few months. Then you can quit for some time.

But our natural eyes "responsiveness" to long term near, will mean that you can expect to 'start down' again, as long as you are in school.

But now, checking your own Snellen, you will not it is time to re-start plus lens wear - and get back to 20/20.

That is exactly what my nephew Keith did. That is what you can do.  Medical people simply are not involved, and can offer no help with this. There job is never prevention, so we should not get them  involved with this subject.

I will respond to your additional question, in due course. They are all good, and need to be  understood.

++++++

First of all -- I admire your fortitude to start wearing the plus, and monitoring your own Snellen, objectively.  I think we trust Todd's statement of his success.

Secondly, you ask some good questions.  I will answer them to the best of my ability, but probably not perfectly.

These are some of the questions Shadowfoot asked me, who also started at 20/30.  He also was 18 years old, and still in school. There is a lot of self-discipline involved, and you must believe in yourself.

+++++

Hi Mr. Otis,

Hans>> Plus = habit

I am wearing the plus during ALL close work. It is now a habit for me to wear it. I do not have to think about it - I just do it.

Otis> Good.  There is a time where you must make an honest commitment, before you see any results. That is very hard for most people.  I also believe that a person should also be taught to measure his refractive state himself - to become truly expert.  But that can come later.

Hans>> My visual acuity

In the evening, when I get slowly tired, I am able to read 20/20 (1/2 of the letters, not completely) but in the next morning, I am again about 20/30. This shows me hopefully that I am making progress.

Otis> The eye SLOWLY changes its refractive state in a positive direction, when you wear a plus for almost all close work (and push print) for best continued effect.  You are verifying a REAL refractive change of about +1/4 diopter at this time.  As you continue, you will begin to verify 20/20 more consistently, and more often.  But your "habit" of wearing the plus - is very important for this process to work, as science.

CONTINUED:
« Last Edit: November 07, 2014, 08:41:32 PM by OtisBrown »

Offline HansK

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Re: Response to Hans' Questions, at 20/30.
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2014, 08:15:53 PM »
Hi Mr. Otis,

I often read about 2 "different types" of "myopia":

1) spasm
2) axial elongation

As you said in a text, Dr. Bates states "axial elongation" is "incurable". Do you state the same?

Would you say that "every type" of "myopia" can be "reversed" with the plus, theoretically? The eye changes its refractive state, we know that but HOW?

If you have -5 for example, we know it is VERY HARD (time factor, motivation etc.) to achieve 20/20 but theoretically, it is possible, right?

Because I read many texts about that topic and I never truly know to which "form" of "myopia" they all address. For me, it seems they imply just the "spasm" can be "reversed".

Kind regards,
Hans

Offline OtisBrown

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Re: Response to Hans' Questions, at 20/30.
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2014, 08:44:12 PM »
Hi Hans,

I posted remarks by Bates (but not his "followers") as a man who had the courage to question the "Helmholtz" theory of the eye.  He conducted the world's FIRST preventive study.  It is obvious that he felt that prevention was limited to the threshold.  How you wish to define that threshold - is up to you, not me.

He used some terms that I can not agree with - so I can not defend them.  I use the term, self-measured refractive STATE, and make it clear that I think prevention is possible in the range of 20/40 to 20/60.  (If you wish to call this "muscle spasm myopia", that is OK by me.) But I only talk about the natural eye with negative status, objectively measured.

With that definition understood, let me reply to your questions.

++++

Hi Mr. Otis,

Hans> I often read about 2 "different types" of "myopia":

1) spasm
2) axial elongation

Otis> Please define these exactly - as I have done it.

a)  A negative STATE of the natural eye, in the range of -1 to -1.25 diotpers could be called a un-desired refractive state of the natural eye.  I would never use the presumptive word, "spasm", because there is no proof that it even exists.   

b) Hans, are you a -5 diotper myope. If you are't, why do you ask the question that has no bearing on the subject?
The term "axial length" has no definition, so no one can measure it or test for it. Would YOU care to define it?

Hans> As you said in a text, Dr. Bates states "axial elongation" is "incurable". Do you state the same?

Otis> No I do not state the same.  What I say, is that, at -1.25 diopters, you should plan to get out of it, and never wear a minus lens.  But I would agree with this specific point, if you even START wearing a minus lens, it will rapidly get out of control.  The best idea is to monitor your own Snellen, wear the plus, and always do better than the 20/40 line, under YOUR personal control.

Hans> Would you say that "every type" of "myopia" can be "reversed" with the plus, theoretically?

Otis> No, I would never say that.   In fact, I suggest you be smart enough to start prevention, before you go much below 20/40, and -1 diopter.  But that is indeed YOUR choice, not my choice.

Hans> The eye changes its refractive state, we know that but HOW?

Otis> That was never my question.  I do not have to know HOW. I just have to know that a minus lens causes "negative status" in all natural eyes - as OBJECTIVE SCIENCE.  But that also proves that placing the NATURAL EYE, in "long-term near", also creates "negative status".   

Hans> If you have -5 for example, we know it is VERY HARD (time factor, motivation etc.) to achieve 20/20 but theoretically, it is possible, right?

Otis> I do not make predictions on what anyone MIGHT do.  I suggest that a person at 20/40, should plan to get himself back to 20/20, with a plus, and NEVER start wearing a minus lens.  There would be NO -5 diopter myopic people, if the person understood the proven behavior of the natural eye.  So I will not talk, or speculate about an issue - that could have been prevented - in the first place.

Hans> Because I read many texts about that topic and I never truly know to which "form" of "myopia" they all address.

Otis> That is because they are totally confused about what they are doing.

Hans> For me, it seems they imply just the "spasm" can be "reversed".

Otis>  I have never said anything like that.  I regret it if you follow their logic - if they have any.

Otis> I have posted repeatedly the fact that it would be WISE to start prevention, at no "deeper" than the 20/40 level. But most people wish to sit on their butts and "argue about it". 

Otis> That is why they will start wearing a minus lens, and that is why it will get profoundly worse. 

Otis> But at least one OD spells this out.

http://myopiafree.i-see.org/soonicansee/index.html

I appreciate Dr. Soon See's courage.  Notice he shows that the "plus" must be started at the 20/40 level, and he shows what is certain to happen to your normal eyes - if you do not start with the plus at the 20/40 level.

I see no point in arguing about it.

It is all up to you now.


Kind regards,
Hans
« Last Edit: November 23, 2014, 08:56:44 PM by OtisBrown »

Offline HansK

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Re: Response to Hans' Questions, at 20/30.
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2014, 11:21:56 PM »
Hi Mr. Otis,

I have asked this because you say you have to start prevention before you are worse than 20/40 (range to 20/70) and never have worn a minus.

That sounds like the case of a "spasm". And I do not know if I have the "spasm" because my first presciption was -1 in both eyes and it increased (just one time) to -1.25 to -1.50 diopters.

And no, I do not have -5 diopters.

I can always read 20/40, sometimes 20/30 and rarely 20/20 (after sleep in the morning, when I wake up).

And as we all know, we want to do better.

1) spasm: after a lot of near-work: not being able to relax the focusing muscle while looking in the distance
2) axial elongation: structural changes in the eye, increasing its total length

Kind regards,
Hans
« Last Edit: November 23, 2014, 11:53:25 PM by HansK »

Offline OtisBrown

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Re: Response to Hans' Questions, at 20/30.
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2014, 04:33:56 AM »
Hi Hans,

Subject: How long will it take to get out of -3.5 diopters?

The answer is seven years.

http://myopiafree.wordpress.com/od-success/

Is that "axial myopia" or is it "spasm myopia".  Do you want to find out.  There is no way you can measure it, it is just an ASSUMPTION.

But why not prevent it, in the 20/40 stage?  I simply refuse to get into that foolish argument.   But that is your answer.

We know that the un-protected eye (no plus lens worn) goes DOWN at a rate of -1/2 diopter per year (average). See:

http://myopiafree.wordpress.com/study/

Absolutely no OD or MD will offer you plus-prevention.  The reasons are LEGAL, as I published them.  I guess they figure you are not smart enough to wear the plus when you are at 20/40, and -1 diopters.  They feel that is you want true-prevention, you should do that yourself, and not, "bother" them.  I hope you are smarter than that - but I never know.


Hans> Hi Mr. Otis,

Hans> I have asked this because you say you have to start prevention before you are worse than 20/40 (range to 20/70) and never have worn a minus.

Otis> I suggest you have a knowledge of statistics, and make and EDUCATED choice, that is "not medical". But I think you have made your choice.

Hans> That sounds like the case of a "spasm". And I do not know if I have the "spasm" because my first presciption was -1 in both eyes and it increased (just one time) to -1.25 to -1.50 diopters.

Otis> If you have a scientific mind, I think you will know what an educated  choice is.  But I might be wrong about you.

Hans> And no, I do not have -5 diopters.

Otis> Great.  You expect to stay at -1.25 diopters for thee next six years??

Hans> I can always read 20/40, sometimes 20/30 and rarely 20/20 (after sleep in the morning, when I wake up).

Otis> Great.  Do an experiment for me.  1) Wear the minus all the time - for the next six years.  2) See if *you* go down by -3 diopters.
Post here, in six years, and let us know what happens to your vision.

Hans> And as we all know, we want to do better.

1) spasm: after a lot of near-work: not being able to relax the focusing muscle while looking in the distance
2) axial elongation: structural changes in the eye, increasing its total length

Otis> Good for you.  Do you consider vision worse than 20/40 to be axial myopia??

Otis>  But let me make this statement.  I think that prevention (at 20/40, and -1 diopter) will never be "prescribed".  I think most people are too timid to attempt to wear the plus, though the school years, because it is indeed tedious.  It is obvious, that no one in medicine will help or support plus-prevention.  But let me post this as the reason, no OD or MD will ever be involved - and I support all ODs who say this.

http://myopiafree.i-see.org/prent.txt

Otis> Good luck to you - I hope the best for you.  But I agree that wearing the plus (for near) is indeed TEDIOUS, and you can't figure out why you should wear it.

Otis>  Let me be very clear about this one issue. I like ODs and MDs.  I do not argue with them.  I judge the public is IMPOSSIBLE, and I judge it that way because of Dr. Prentice's statement.

Otis> It takes a wise person, to realize  that "just prevention, " is pure-personal".  There is no sense in thinking that anyone medical is concerned. 

Otis> I rather doubt that you are concerned to much, if anything about it. But that will be your choice, for the next six year. It is not my choice, and I am not concerned about what you must choose to do about it.

Otis> Of course if you want EXCLUSIVELY a medical solution and are in fear of wearing a plus - just read this:

http://forum.gettingstronger.org/index.php/topic,1070.0.html

and forget all that you have read here.

Enjoy,

Otis


Kind regards,
Hans




Hi Mr. Otis,

I have asked this because you say you have to start prevention before you are worse than 20/40 (range to 20/70) and never have worn a minus.

That sounds like the case of a "spasm". And I do not know if I have the "spasm" because my first presciption was -1 in both eyes and it increased (just one time) to -1.25 to -1.50 diopters.

And no, I do not have -5 diopters.

I can always read 20/40, sometimes 20/30 and rarely 20/20 (after sleep in the morning, when I wake up).

And as we all know, we want to do better.

1) spasm: after a lot of near-work: not being able to relax the focusing muscle while looking in the distance
2) axial elongation: structural changes in the eye, increasing its total length

Kind regards,
Hans
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 07:08:19 AM by OtisBrown »

Offline HansK

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Re: Response to Hans' Questions, at 20/30.
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2014, 07:07:28 AM »
Hi Mr. Otis,

thanks for your answers. I do not know if 20/40 can be axial myopia. As for me, I started with -1, believed the OD that not wearing the minus is harmful and then, after 4-6 weeks or so, I increased to -1.25 to -1.50.

Does the minus now caused the "axial myopia"? I can read 20/40, so I do not know if I have "axial myopia".

I know that the minus (if you have over-prescription) destroys long-term vision. I am wearing the plus for any near-work, but unfortunately, I want INSTANT results. So I doubt now if the eye is just capable of adapting just in one direction ("hyperopic defocus", towards myopia).

I always get disappointed when I wake uo, have good vision (not VERY sharp, but 20/20 is achievable, 1/2 of the letters) and after a period, it returns to 20/30 to 20/40.

And for now, I am missing the sharp vision, missing to see (sharply) faces in the distance (without effort) and so on. You all know what I mean.

Kind regards,
Hans