Author Topic: How to do pushing with high astigmatism?  (Read 5258 times)

Offline qofmiwok

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How to do pushing with high astigmatism?
« on: January 14, 2015, 10:36:51 PM »
I know this stuff works.  20+ years ago I did vision therapy and reversed my prescription a lot.  But I've gotten lazy, and old so don't have as much accommodation.  I just had an eye exam and they wanted to make my distance prescription stronger and my astigmatism correction stronger, but I instead put in a bit less of each than I had before.  They really wanted to overcorrect them. 

Right eye: -1.5 with -2.5 cylinder
Left eye: -0.5 with -2.25 cyinder

So my question is, how to push without glasses when everything is "double" without astigmatism correction?  I can kind of read without glasses but it's slow and very "doubled" from the astigmatism.  Should I read & push as much as I can this way anyway, or do I need to buy some glasses with my astigmatism correction but zero spherical correction to use for the pushing?

In general I'm not seeing as much on the site about reversing astigmatism.  Is this really possible like it is with spherical?

Thanks!

Offline qofmiwok

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Re: How to do pushing with high astigmatism?
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2015, 08:14:03 AM »
Thanks, I read the post.  But there is no discussion of how he did the pushing, except for the first post where he said he wore plus lenses over his corrected lenses.  How does one do that?  You can't put glasses over glasses.  I guess you could wear contacts with plus lenses over but I'm not interested in contacts based on my previous tries.  Is there something you can buy that fits over your existing glasses?

i also read other posts where you seem to be telling people to ignore their astigmatism, so I'm not clear on that.  Do you mean lesser amounts than I have, or do you mean if you stop correcting for the astigmatism, just let it be doubled, then it will eventually go away?

Offline CapitalPrince

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Re: How to do pushing with high astigmatism?
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2015, 09:09:33 AM »
hi qofmiwok,

you can absolutely put glasses over glasses. If i wear a -2D lens and +5D, the net total would be +3D more on my eyes.

dealing with astigmatism is extremely tricky. this is why its important to avoid wearing the astigmatism lens in the first place.

Otis's advice is usually for people to ignore their astigmatism or convert it to a spherical equivalent by doing sph+(1/2)(cyl). However since you see astigmatism up close, its difficult case to deal

you can try wearing glasses with significantly reduced astigmatism up close if the double vision is too much of a problem. for distance you want to try a lower astigmatism correction as well.

Offline qofmiwok

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Re: How to do pushing with high astigmatism?
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2015, 09:32:14 AM »
How?  (do you put glasses over glasses?)

Offline qofmiwok

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Re: How to do pushing with high astigmatism?
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2015, 11:05:39 AM »
I'm wondering now if I can do pushing with progressive lenses since they compensate for the astigmatism. But with the progressives I just got I can read as far away as my arms reach and it is still clear.  So that means I need progressives with a larger add power, correct? 

But since my left eye has almost no myopia, just astigmatism, maybe I should only do pushing with my right eye to try to even them up.  Then just keep slowly work backwards on astigmatism with weaker prescriptions. 

Offline Bloobi

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Re: How to do pushing with high astigmatism?
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2015, 03:50:16 AM »
Astigmatism is an eye condition which is mainly caused by an asymmetric shape of the cornea, rather than a long axial eye length which is the cause of most significant myopia cases. Print pushing causes a symmetric pull of the extraocular muscles of the eyes. For astigmatism often an asymmetrical pull is advised where the eye is pulled to the sides.

I would advice you to try the exercise which Leo Angart demonstrates in this Youtube video with the Tibetian wheel. The power vision system has similar exercises where the eyes are stretched to all sides, but without help of a drawing.

Regarding your prescription, the spherical equivalent value is still significant in my opinion. You can calculate the spherical equivalent by adding half of the astigmatism value to the spherical value.

This gives for your eyes the following values:
right: -2.75
left: -1.625

This spherical equivalent can worked on using print pushing.

Offline Alex_Myopic

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Re: How to do pushing with high astigmatism?
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2015, 05:23:00 AM »
@Bloobi

Τhe instructor says some extreme(!) results on the Snellen chart in six hours of the exercise...
At 9:20
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAakgY2fdbE

Offline qofmiwok

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Re: How to do pushing with high astigmatism?
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2015, 01:33:44 PM »
I ended up buy glasses with reduced astigmatism and reading just beyond the blur point.  I'm up to a +2.0 for computer and +2.5 for books from my distance correction.  My vision has definitely been improving.  I also reduced my distance glasses by 0.5 sphere and 0.25 cylinder in both eyes and that has worked fine and I feel I should reduce it more.

I received my trial lens kit and frame and have been experimenting.  There are various combinations of astigmatism and diopter which allow me to see about the same.  So I'm not sure which is better.  Should I reduce the astigmatism as much as possible, or reduce the diopter?  Particularly since my left eye is so much better than my right eye.  I feel like I should start trying to normalize them but I'm not sure the right strategy, whether to get the cylinders the same with different spheres, or make the spheres the same with different cylinders.

For example:
L I can see 20/30 or better with     0,-2.0 or with -0.5, -1.5, or with -1.0, -1.0.  (sphere then cylinder)
R I can see 20/30 or better with -1.5,-2.0 or with -2.0, -1.5

Thoughts anyone?

Offline OtisBrown

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Re: How to do pushing with high astigmatism?
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2015, 03:45:20 PM »
Hi Gofmiwok,

I am impressed.  It is possible to estimate your refractive state - based on the fact that you can read through a +2 and +2.5 diopter lens.

People with severe myopia, can not even read anything though a plus of any power.  I also support your concept of self measurement, using your
own test-lenses. That is to give you complete control and good judgment of these issues.  A person who is finally successful, because he sees
his own results - with never "bother" with an office-OD ever again.

MY SUGGESTION:

I know are deeply concerned with astigmatism - that you measure yourself.  But I always believe that you should do your "final checks" with both
eyes open.  I think you could probably exceed the 20/30 line with both eyes, and no astigmatic correction.  I know this must be a personal
judgment on your part.

So, as part of your report, I would post, "both eyes", on a classic "home Snellen", which we all are using for this effort of self-prevention.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgUkoSSgVOs

I am a great believer, in doing prevention myself, and making all measurements.  This is a cooperative effort, where recovery
is always self-reported.  Thanks for your report and interest.


I ended up buy glasses with reduced astigmatism and reading just beyond the blur point.  I'm up to a +2.0 for computer and +2.5 for books from my distance correction.  My vision has definitely been improving.  I also reduced my distance glasses by 0.5 sphere and 0.25 cylinder in both eyes and that has worked fine and I feel I should reduce it more.

I received my trial lens kit and frame and have been experimenting.  There are various combinations of astigmatism and diopter which allow me to see about the same.  So I'm not sure which is better.  Should I reduce the astigmatism as much as possible, or reduce the diopter?  Particularly since my left eye is so much better than my right eye.  I feel like I should start trying to normalize them but I'm not sure the right strategy, whether to get the cylinders the same with different spheres, or make the spheres the same with different cylinders.

For example:
L I can see 20/30 or better with     0,-2.0 or with -0.5, -1.5, or with -1.0, -1.0.  (sphere then cylinder)
R I can see 20/30 or better with -1.5,-2.0 or with -2.0, -1.5

Thoughts anyone?

Offline qofmiwok

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Re: How to do pushing with high astigmatism?
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2015, 05:11:47 PM »
I meant that I am using a +2 adder for computer and +2.5 for reading.  Not sure if that was clear. 
So sphere is R: +0.5 computer and +1.0 reading, and L: +1.5 computer and +2 reading.  Both with astigmatism correction.
When I got those glasses last month I could barely see though them and thought they were made wrong; I had to hold the book 5 inches away.  But the blur point quickly moved out to a comfortable distance.

The numbers I posted below are my measurements with the snellen.  So are you saying I should try both eyes with no astigmatism correction, and see if there's any spherical correction that allows me to see the 20/30 line?

Offline OtisBrown

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Re: How to do pushing with high astigmatism?
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2015, 07:28:24 PM »
Hi Gofmidwok,

We learn best, from people who have made themselves successful. I would read this person's account about his,
astigmatic struggle and success.  I think he is now exceeding the 20/40 line, naked eye, using "reduced"
astigmatism, and using a plus for all close work.

http://forum.gettingstronger.org/index.php/topic,961.0.html

A truly good check, is to see what you can read on that bright Snellen, with both eyes open.  I think one-eye checks are nice, but the real
and final check is for both eyes together.  I am always interested in what the person can see on that Snellen I provided.  That is how
I check my vision, as well as the amount of refraction I have.  This is just my desire to be fully competent to check this myself.   In general,
I use spherical lenses, since it is so easy to do it. 

If you have mild astigmatism (as some people do and have reported it), they find that, very slowly their astigmatism "reduces", as their
Snellen begins to clear.  For close work, I just use a spherical plus, and I doubt that there is any need for anything else.

Obviously, my goal is to pass the required DMV line of 20/40.  (In practice, I must read the 20/30 line, to make certain I am totally
legal to drive.

Work of this nature (to clear your Snellen) is very slow, and for that reason frustrating.  It is good to have a reasonable goal, of 20/30, naked eye
to achieve yourself - in my judgment.

I meant that I am using a +2 adder for computer and +2.5 for reading.  Not sure if that was clear. 
So sphere is R: +0.5 computer and +1.0 reading, and L: +1.5 computer and +2 reading.  Both with astigmatism correction.
When I got those glasses last month I could barely see though them and thought they were made wrong; I had to hold the book 5 inches away.  But the blur point quickly moved out to a comfortable distance.

The numbers I posted below are my measurements with the snellen.  So are you saying I should try both eyes with no astigmatism correction, and see if there's any spherical correction that allows me to see the 20/30 line?
« Last Edit: March 09, 2015, 07:33:28 PM by OtisBrown »

Offline OtisBrown

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Re: How to do pushing with high astigmatism?
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2015, 03:56:10 PM »
Subject: About astigmatic measurements - by yourself.

I know how to measure astigmatism, using the "classic method".  If you have this kit - you could, and should do it yourself.

http://frauenfeldclinic.com/where-to-buy-a-test-lens-kit/

I advocate a "reduced" kit, that only provides you with the lenses you need.  It takes an independent, strong mind and resolve
to do this.

I have self-checked 20/20, with no lens, so any astigmatism I *might* have is of no interest to me.  For those with
significant astigmatism, a trial-kit would be of value.

Offline qofmiwok

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Re: How to do pushing with high astigmatism?
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2015, 05:13:46 PM »
Yes, I have the kit, that is how I did the measurements.  With the trial lens kit and the snellen chart.  But what I am saying is there are a variety of different combinations of sphere and cylinder that allow me to see well enough.  What I don't know is if I should go ahead and take a big reduction in cylinder correction, increasing the sphere.  Or keep the cylinder correction in until sphere goes to zero, then start taking it out.

Offline OtisBrown

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Re: How to do pushing with high astigmatism?
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2015, 07:22:44 PM »
HI Cindi,

Subject:  Prevention, or Snellen-clearing is always personal.

Item:  I will state my goal, but I can only suggest what I would do - based on my personal goal.

1)  I would read that Snellen, looking for naked-eye 20/40, with no glasses.  That would be base-line for me.  The reason is to avoid wearing any
lens - if I do not have to wear a lens.

2) Then I would hold up a -1 diopter, (spherical) to see if that would clear the 20/20 line.  If it did, then I would order a spherical lens from Zennioptical for driving a car.

3) I would be wearing a spherical plus lens, of about -1.75 to +2.0 diopters, for all close work.

I do not like wearing a lens for distance, and if slightly "astigmatic", I simply would not do it.

If it were me, I would take a big reduction in cylinder, to almost spherical.  But this is a highly personal choice, and only you can choose.

I also congratulate you in obtaining your own "test lenses".  This is to inspire competence in yourself, and judgment.  Keep up your
excellent work, because only you alone will judge your own success.

Very few people have any interest in any of this.  Your "office optometrist", simply has no interest, and has no ability to help you.
This is why being objective and reasonable about your own goals, is the only standard to work to.


Yes, I have the kit, that is how I did the measurements.  With the trial lens kit and the snellen chart.  But what I am saying is there are a variety of different combinations of sphere and cylinder that allow me to see well enough.  What I don't know is if I should go ahead and take a big reduction in cylinder correction, increasing the sphere.  Or keep the cylinder correction in until sphere goes to zero, then start taking it out.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2015, 07:27:30 PM by OtisBrown »

Offline qofmiwok

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Re: How to do pushing with high astigmatism?
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2015, 10:23:32 AM »
Thanks.  I have been experimenting with a big drop in cylinder.  I can't get it all the way out now, but I can go to -1 in my left eye and -1.5 or -1.75 in my right eye (down from almost 3).  I don't mind wearing glasses, but the astigmatism has always been a pain; I couldn't wear contacts, couldn't wear prescription ski goggles, etc.  Reducing or eliminating that is a priority.  Until a month ago I didn't know astigmatism could be reduced or eliminated.  The tibetan wheel seems to be making a difference. But I also have to wonder if I just have "astigmatism" because some eyedoctor once said I did, and then the lenses locked it in place. 

To me this process is fun.  I think we have to learn about and take responsibilities for our own health; you certainly can't count on any medical professional.  Unfortunately I have about 6 pair of glasses (skiing, reading, computer, piano, progressives) and this drop in cylinder will make them all obsolete.  I'm not sure I could have stomached this with eyeglasses at regular prices.  But the cheap ones online, and being able to get them made with a prescription, are revolutionary in the ability to do this type of work.

I will keep posting updates every month or so in case this helps someone else. 
For a few years my glasses have been:
R: -1.5 sphere with -3 cylinder at 170
L: -0.75 sphere with -2.75 cylinder at 168

In December I got a new prescription measurement that was
R: -2.0 sphere with -2.75 cylinder at 170
L: -1.0 sphere with -2.5 cylinder at 165

Instead of making glasses with that prescription, I started doing eye exercises and got glasses made at:
R: -1.5 sphere with -2.5 cylinder at 170
L: -0.5 sphere with -2.25 cylinder at 165
Within a short time I was able to see very good with those.  They are progressives and I even find myself using the middle section of the correction rather than the strongest at the top.

Then I learned about active focus and pushing, and got reading glasses which were +2 add to those (and also reduced cylinder by 0.5).  At first I had to read very close for the blur point, but within a couple weeks they are fine for using my laptop.  Now I have a +2.5 adder for reading books with an additional 0.25 cylinder reduction).  Some people say that you should only read past the blur point a short time each day, but I do it a large portion of the day, either on my laptop or reading.  It doesn't seem to cause me ill effects.

A few days ago I got my trial lens kit and was able to really start experimenting.  I had read that you can substitute sphere for cylinder, and I have found that is true to a degree.  I can't yet get to a sphere that completely eliminates the cylinder, but I can get quite a bit lower.  I'm now going to this prescription for distance:
R: -2.0 sphere with -1.5 cylinder at 170
L: -1.0 sphere with -1.0 cylinder at 165
So instead of continuing to reduce the sphere which is already low, I am going back to the spherical correction I got at that exam two and a half months ago, but with the astigmatism significantly reduced.  (The left eye is reacting quicker, so this week I started reading pushing with a patch on my left eye.)  Frankly cutting my astigmatism in half in 3 months seems unbelievable, so I might just stay at this cylinder correction for a while to stabilize.  I'm not sure the theory on that, whether stabilization is good or you just keep going.  But I will keep experimenting with my trial lenses to see what seems right.

I am also getting new computer and reading glasses to correspond with this drop in astigmatism, but with large plus adders.