Author Topic: Is better-than 20/20 possible? A discussion. Shadow & Otis  (Read 8283 times)

Offline OtisBrown

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Subject:  Is better-than 20/20 possibe?
Shadow has self-confirmed 20/20, using the standard Snellen eye chart.  It is his desire to do better-than 20/20 -- if at all possible.  He stated that his s frustrated with 20/20 vision, and has a desire to do better-than 20/20.  Is that possible?  The 20/20 standard was established because it was judged that a large percentage of eyes had retinas that could pass the reading of 3/8 inch letters at 20 feet.  If you are "younger" some retinas can read 20/18, and 20/15.  That is Shadow's stated goal.  If you are a pilot, and your professional career REQUIRES that you always read the 20/20 line, then doing some additional work with a plus to get to 20/18 would be of considerable value (just to be safe in your career).  But it does take a lot of additional work with a plus lens to get the natural eye's refractive status to "change postive" by an additional +1/2 to +3/4 diopters.  This thread will continue that discussion. My next post will be Shadow's defining request, and my initial response to help him.

Offline OtisBrown

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Re: Is better-than 20/20 possible? A discussion. Shadow & Otis
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2011, 03:40:20 AM »
Shadow> Otis,
Shadow>  I have discussed my relationship with perfect here on this thread before so I will not repeat myself. I do not see any reason why I should not strive to become better and settle for mediocrity. My biggest goal right now is 20/15, because that will enable me to see as well as everyone I know who wears glasses. It really frustrates me that in a situation where I am the only one with "perfect" vision, I see the worst. A friend of mine, for example, tested at 20/13 with his glasses on.
Otis> I agree with your goal -- but I consider it very difficult to accomplish.  I am convinced you can not "work" this issue with an OD or MD -- but only with your own "independence of mind", and personal resolve.

Offline OtisBrown

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Re: Is better-than 20/20 possible? A discussion. Shadow & Otis
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2011, 03:41:51 AM »
Hi Shadow,
Subject: I fully support you in your goal.
But I do suggest the following:
1) Become an expert in checking to see if you can actually achieve 20/15.
2) That means, with the strongest minus, find if you can read the 20/15 line.  I will help you with this measurement. Do not rely on anyone else to do this you -- because
a) It is very expensive and
b) You will not believe it -- unless you "see" it yourself.
So get yourself some minus lenses from Zennioptical.  a -0.25, -.5 -0.75 and -1.0 will be all you need. That will cost about $20
Here is a video of a Snellen and these lenses. (Just to get the idea.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKGMmpPQcCQ
Since I know you are at 20/20 (refractive state of zero), you need to look at your Snellen and hold up a -0.25, to see if that will clear the 20/15 line.  If not, then try a -0.5. Keep on doing this until you clear the "lowest" line, (maybe the 20/10) on your own Snellen.  This will save you from attempting to do the impossilbe.  If you can't clear the 20/15 line, then your retina is simply not capable of it.  That should "clear the air" for you.  In my judgment, it takes great personal resolve and commitment to do this.  It is obvous that, should you choose to continue, you start wearing a +2.5 to +3.0 for all close work.  I would expect a man whose entire life is to be a pilot -- to do this -- because of the great worth to him.  Let me know when you are going to order the "test" lenses from Zennioptical.  I will help you with that.  Otis

Offline OtisBrown

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Re: Is better-than 20/20 possible? A discussion. Shadow & Otis
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2011, 03:48:40 AM »
Hi Shadow,
Subject: A Snellen with 20/20, 20/15, 20/13 and 20/10.
Here is the chart.  You can set it up as I have shown in my video.

http://www.i-see.org/block_letter_eye_chart.pdf

Just print out the full chart.  Otis



Offline OtisBrown

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Re: Is better-than 20/20 possible? A discussion. Shadow & Otis
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2011, 05:36:39 AM »
Hi Shadow,
Subject: Reading a "prescription".

Here is how to do it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUO4i4uFcfE&feature=related
Do you have a prescription?  If you do, could you post it here.  That will be a vauable "starting point" for you to make a judgment about your work.  I can help you with some of these details -- to achieve better-than 20/20 by use of a plus.
Best,
Otis

Offline shadowfoot

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Re: Is better-than 20/20 possible? A discussion. Shadow & Otis
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2011, 07:23:17 AM »
I want to make it abundantly clear that I am not frustrated with 20/20. I am very grateful for all of your help getting there and am very grateful that I did not have very far to go. I am grateful to not have to wear glasses.

My simple, stated goal is to have the best vision that I can. If I cannot do better than I have right now, I can be very, very happy with that. But I see room for improvement, realistic improvement, and I want to take it. I could have functioned my entire life at 20/40 or 20/30, just as I can not function at 20/20. I want to do better. I'm not saying I want 20/5 vision -- I know that's not possible. I want what I know is possible, just like everyone else here who knows its possible to throw away their glasses.

I set up the vision chart you have linked, and was a little confused as to why there are 20/6, 20/5, and 20/4 lines on it considering that those are not humanly possible. But that is beside the point. I have checked myself with small minuses as you have suggested and I found that while they make the lines "sharper," they do not allow me to read any further than I can with my naked eyes. This is because I have an astigmatism in both eyes. I have checked this with astigmatism tests, by covering one eye and seeing double images in the distance, and by the observation that I can only read the 20/25 lines with each eye individually and the 20/20 line with both. Unless I had access to an eye doctors equipment I cannot correct that astigmatism with a lens and see what my true potential is.

Therefore, I will continue to work with the plus and keep you posted on any results.

-shadowfoot

Offline OtisBrown

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Re: Is better-than 20/20 possible? A discussion. Shadow & Otis
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2011, 09:05:55 AM »
Hi Shadow,
Subject: The motivation to do the best you can do.
I truly appreciate that level of motivation.  But please understand -- I ask a person to "commit" towards a reasonable and POSSIBLE goal.  This is why I emphasize (for the vast majority of us) that we work to pass the 20/40 line.  That is a "make or break" line for me, and, if I wish to avoid the minus, then I must take personal reponsiblity to pass it.  If you can not "clear" your Snellen with a minus, beyond 20/20, then (in my opinion), I think it will be possible to clear it by the use of the plus.
PERSONAL NOTE:  Since you raised this issue, I though I should check myself for 20/18 vision.  So I went downstairs, and backed off to about 28 feet. (That makes the 20/20 line the 20/18 line.)  I could read it!!  (I will supply the calculations later.)  But for me, 20/25 to 20/20 meets all my requirements.  But let me add this idea for you.  Since we know that Todd worked to clear his Snellen -- and was successful, I believe that others (with intense motivation) could do the same thing -- under THEIR control.  For this reason I prepared a proposal to "formalize" this type of scientific work.  I am certain that if you were entering a four year collge, (as described here) you would want to be one of the engineering leading this study.  I know I would want to be part of it:
http://myopiafree.i-see.org/Embry.html
But each person would have to be both very intelligent, very motivated, and have an "independent mind".  I will continue to post here along with this idea of being wise about this idea, and conducting this type of study that I classify as "Engineering", and "Not Medical".  Best, Otis

I want to make it abundantly clear that I am not frustrated with 20/20. I am very grateful for all of your help getting there and am very grateful that I did not have very far to go. I am grateful to not have to wear glasses.

My simple, stated goal is to have the best vision that I can. If I cannot do better than I have right now, I can be very, very happy with that. But I see room for improvement, realistic improvement, and I want to take it. I could have functioned my entire life at 20/40 or 20/30, just as I can not function at 20/20. I want to do better. I'm not saying I want 20/5 vision -- I know that's not possible. I want what I know is possible, just like everyone else here who knows its possible to throw away their glasses.

I set up the vision chart you have linked, and was a little confused as to why there are 20/6, 20/5, and 20/4 lines on it considering that those are not humanly possible. But that is beside the point. I have checked myself with small minuses as you have suggested and I found that while they make the lines "sharper," they do not allow me to read any further than I can with my naked eyes. This is because I have an astigmatism in both eyes. I have checked this with astigmatism tests, by covering one eye and seeing double images in the distance, and by the observation that I can only read the 20/25 lines with each eye individually and the 20/20 line with both. Unless I had access to an eye doctors equipment I cannot correct that astigmatism with a lens and see what my true potential is.

Therefore, I will continue to work with the plus and keep you posted on any results.

-shadowfoot

Offline shadowfoot

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Re: Is better-than 20/20 possible? A discussion. Shadow & Otis
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2011, 09:44:27 AM »
Otis,

I posted a month of so back (I think it was that long) that I was able to "make out" the 20/20 line for the first time. It did not come instantly, but I was able to read the letters after a little bit of accommodation. As of today I can easily read the 20/20 and can, if I really work my eyes and give them time to accommodate, I can make out the 20/15 line. I can also tell that letters exist up to the 20/10 line. Beyond that it ceases to be letters and is just a micro-blur. This tells me that in a few more weeks time I should be able to make out the 20/15 line as easily as I can make out the 20/20 line now, just like how the 20/20 line eventually became "easy."


Offline OtisBrown

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Re: Is better-than 20/20 possible? A discussion. Shadow & Otis
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2011, 03:46:13 PM »
Hi Shadow,
Subject:  In my opinion, it takes both strong intelligence, but great motivation to keep yourself at 20/20 or better.

Thanks for the statement.  As you know, I have advocated a very serious prevention study -- to be conducted and led by people like yourself.  Tragically, I get no support at all.  This is why you have no choice but to use the plus (in my opinion) and always keep your Snellen (self verified) at 20/20, or better-than 20/20.  This is also "leadership" for Jansen, who I knows how difficult it is to "keep motivated", when he plateaus at 20/50 for some time.  I normally work with pilots (at 20/60 and -1 diopters) who recognize the great value of clearing their vision UNDER THEIR TOTAL CONTROL.  But it does take strong dedication to stay with it and do it.  Thanks, Otis

Otis,

I posted a month of so back (I think it was that long) that I was able to "make out" the 20/20 line for the first time. It did not come instantly, but I was able to read the letters after a little bit of accommodation. As of today I can easily read the 20/20 and can, if I really work my eyes and give them time to accommodate, I can make out the 20/15 line. I can also tell that letters exist up to the 20/10 line. Beyond that it ceases to be letters and is just a micro-blur. This tells me that in a few more weeks time I should be able to make out the 20/15 line as easily as I can make out the 20/20 line now, just like how the 20/20 line eventually became "easy."



Offline shadowfoot

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Re: Is better-than 20/20 possible? A discussion. Shadow & Otis
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2011, 09:00:44 AM »
Otis,

The following is an excerpt from Wikipedia.

Quote from: Wikipedia
In humans, the maximum acuity of a healthy, emmetropic eye (and even ametropic eyes with correctors) is approximately 20/16 to 20/12, so it is inaccurate to refer to 20/20 visual acuity as "perfect" vision. 20/20 is the visual acuity needed to discriminate two points separated by 1 arc minute—about 1/16 of an inch at 20 feet. This is because a 20/20 letter, E for example, has three limbs and two spaces in between them, giving 5 different detailed areas. The ability to resolve this therefore requires 1/5 of the letter's total arc, which in this case would be 1 minute. The significance of the 20/20 standard can best be thought of as the lower limit of normal or as a screening cutoff. When used as a screening test subjects that reach this level need no further investigation, even though the average visual acuity of healthy eyes is 20/16 to 20/12.

According to this, the healthy human eye, without any imperfection, can attain a visual acuity of between 20/16 and 20/12, what you refer to as max visual acuity. Given that one can improve ones eyesight from several diopters out to 20/20, I cannot see why 20/15 would be in any way an elusive or undesirable goal.

-shadowfoot

Offline Steven

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Re: Is better-than 20/20 possible? A discussion. Shadow & Otis
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2013, 02:40:30 PM »
Shadow, how can you get rid of astigmatism completely ?
Does it really go down as you lower your spherical eye defect.

I need confirmation from people who tested things like i did.

Offline OtisBrown

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Re: Is better-than 20/20 possible? A discussion. Shadow & Otis
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2013, 07:38:58 PM »
Hi Steven,
As your refractive status moves towards zero - your astigmatism becomes much less.  I use "Spherical" lenses on myself - and would never "prescribe" for astigmatism less than -1.0 diopters.  This is simply not necessary.  Here is the expert opinion for your reference:

http://frauenfeldclinic.com/category/myopia-blog/

I have self-confirmed 20/20.  Let us say I DID have some astigmatism. Would I wear a lens on my face with 20/20?  NEVER!

Offline Steven

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Re: Is better-than 20/20 possible? A discussion. Shadow & Otis
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2013, 11:47:51 PM »
Hi Steven,
As your refractive status moves towards zero - your astigmatism becomes much less.  I use "Spherical" lenses on myself - and would never "prescribe" for astigmatism less than -1.0 diopters.  This is simply not necessary.  Here is the expert opinion for your reference:

http://frauenfeldclinic.com/category/myopia-blog/

I have self-confirmed 20/20.  Let us say I DID have some astigmatism. Would I wear a lens on my face with 20/20?  NEVER!

Thank you very much for the answer. Good article. No more doubts. It crystal clear now.