Author Topic: Test Subject N=1 - Passed my Driver's Vision Test  (Read 8253 times)

Offline peterg

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Test Subject N=1 - Passed my Driver's Vision Test
« on: October 29, 2012, 07:32:34 PM »
I’ve wanted to announce this in a good forum, but I can’t quite figure out where is the most productive place. In light of this, I will post in the forums where I was active.
 
On Oct. 12, 2012 I went to get my driver's license renewed and with it I requested a new vision test.  I was measured with both eyes open at 20/30 and with that result I had the corrective lens restriction  removed from my driver’s license.

I started this process of learning about myopia prevention theories about a year ago, and haphazardly began to push print 10 months ago.  I was wearing a perscription of -2L/-2.5R, a perscription which had been stable for about 20 years.  I could barely see the big E (20/200) when I looked at a standard eye chart.
 
As I began pushing print, I also visited a “myopia reduction and myopia control” friendly optometrist.  He reduced my perscription to -2L/-2R and -1.5L/-1.5R for reading.  In three months I visited a standard optometrist who verified my new perscription should be -1.25L/-1.25R for distance.

During these 10 months I have tried to read and search all the internet archives or sites which debated myopia prevention and have reached out to many people on both sides of the debate.  Without those archives I feel I would not have gotten to this point of having improved naked eye vision.  I want to thank internet forum participants who took the time to post messages and engage in debate over what is probably 15 years.  I reached out to many people for clarification on their opinions, and many offered at least one or two email responses.  I freely admit that all of them helped me get to my current vision status, wherever they stood on the issue.  My thanks to all of them.

I know I am unique test subject N=1, and perhaps nothing more than a person in his middle years who would have improved anyway.  Anecdotally, I applied some environmental changes to how I read, and with that my vision status rapidly changed.   I hope others will be at least as successful and hopefully  even more than I have been.

Offline PROH

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Re: Test Subject N=1 - Passed my Driver's Vision Test
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2012, 11:16:49 PM »
Hi Peter



I am very happy & motivated on your success. Now you can freely drive & "OFFICIALLY"  doesn't need glasses any more .
Enjoy the freedom.
Keep trying the goal should be now to have 20/20

Proh

Offline johnlink

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Re: Test Subject N=1 - Passed my Driver's Vision Test
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2013, 06:09:16 AM »
Congratulations, Peter! I know I'm responding to your news four months after you posted it but I just joined this forum a few weeks ago. I look forward to exchanging ideas with you.

What do you mean by "pushing print"?

John
« Last Edit: March 03, 2013, 06:11:29 AM by johnlink »

Offline peterg

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Re: Test Subject N=1 - Passed my Driver's Vision Test
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2013, 02:54:14 PM »
Pushing print is just another way of refering to the proper way of using plus lenses (or naked eye in my case) for reading.  You read just inside the edge of blur the majority of the time, and then you try every so often to "push the print" a few inches out from there where it gets blurry and attempt to make it clear.

The method I stumbled upon and which worked for me was doing this along with "distance pulling" every so often while doing intensive near work.  The distance pulling is essentially looking out in the distance and trying to make things clear.

Congratulations, Peter! I know I'm responding to your news four months after you posted it but I just joined this forum a few weeks ago. I look forward to exchanging ideas with you.

What do you mean by "pushing print"?

John

Offline johnlink

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Re: Test Subject N=1 - Passed my Driver's Vision Test
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2013, 03:11:31 PM »
Thank you, Peter.

Offline OtisBrown

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Re: Test Subject N=1 - Passed my Driver's Vision Test
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2013, 05:09:19 AM »
Hi Peter,

I have reviewed a number of "bifocal" studies with children.  Some insist that these studies "succeed", others insist that they "fail".  The truly DIFFICULT issue (with children) is that you can not inform them, or ASK THEM to "sit up" and "push print".  Therefore it is impossible to run a truly effective plus-prevention study - unless the person himself is properly informed of this critical step in a preventive study.  I guess the assumption is that the person is either to young, or if older, to incompetent to be informed of the critical nature of proper wearing of the plus (with no minus - assuming a "starting" visual acuity of 20/50).  But where a strong plus was used on children (Francis Young) - even with the above limitations - the results were highly significant in a scientific sense.  But it does take a lot of determination (in the last phase) of prevention to get that last change of +1.0 diopters.  The statement by Prentice (plus-wearing is tedious) truly defines the problem that most people will have with the necessity of wearing the plus for that last Snellen clearing work.  Thanks for your statement and success!!

Pushing print is just another way of refering to the proper way of using plus lenses (or naked eye in my case) for reading.  You read just inside the edge of blur the majority of the time, and then you try every so often to "push the print" a few inches out from there where it gets blurry and attempt to make it clear.

The method I stumbled upon and which worked for me was doing this along with "distance pulling" every so often while doing intensive near work.  The distance pulling is essentially looking out in the distance and trying to make things clear.

Congratulations, Peter! I know I'm responding to your news four months after you posted it but I just joined this forum a few weeks ago. I look forward to exchanging ideas with you.

What do you mean by "pushing print"?

John

Offline peterg

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Re: Test Subject N=1 - Passed my Driver's Vision Test
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2013, 06:48:26 AM »
I have reviewed a number of "bifocal" studies with children.  Some insist that these studies "succeed", others insist that they "fail".  The truly DIFFICULT issue (with children) is that you can not inform them, or ASK THEM to "sit up" and "push print". 

It has been my experience with my son, that is it almost impossible to motivate him and have him change his habits voluntarily.  He understands what I would like him to do and he has seen the proven benefit at various times.  He knows exactly where the ideal area for reading is, how to identify the edge of blur, and how being just inside it is ideal to prevent further nearsighted development for his eyes.  For those that have succeeded establishing some discipline with their children, I always applaud them.  It is an impressive accomplishment based on my first hand experience.

Therefore it is impossible to run a truly effective plus-prevention study - unless the person himself is properly informed of this critical step in a preventive study.  I guess the assumption is that the person is either to young, or if older, to incompetent to be informed of the critical nature of proper wearing of the plus (with no minus - assuming a "starting" visual acuity of 20/50).  But where a strong plus was used on children (Francis Young) - even with the above limitations - the results were highly significant in a scientific sense.  But it does take a lot of determination (in the last phase) of prevention to get that last change of +1.0 diopters.  The statement by Prentice (plus-wearing is tedious) truly defines the problem that most people will have with the necessity of wearing the plus for that last Snellen clearing work.  Thanks for your statement and success!!

I can understand in theory why a strong plus will help.  My son would of course take it off as quick as I tried to put it on, given he would find it very uncomfortable.   However, if he wore it frequently, and even if not at edge of blur, I am sure there would be some impact as you state Francis Young identified.  Just as I believe when you wear minus lenses only for distance, you can not help but occasionally use them for near as well thus giving the wrong sort of stimulation.  If you wore strong pluses without being trained how, you would probably still occasionally "by accident" stimulate the eyes in exactly the correct way.

Peter

Offline johnlink

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Re: Test Subject N=1 - Passed my Driver's Vision Test
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2013, 07:13:29 AM »
It has been my experience with my son, that is it almost impossible to motivate him and have him change his habits voluntarily.  He understands what I would like him to do and he has seen the proven benefit at various times.  He knows exactly where the ideal area for reading is, how to identify the edge of blur, and how being just inside it is ideal to prevent further nearsighted development for his eyes.  For those that have succeeded establishing some discipline with their children, I always applaud them.  It is an impressive accomplishment based on my first hand experience.

If your son has 20/20 vision I wonder whether he experientially knows what being nearsightedness is. Have you explained to him that being nearsighted means that his distance vision without any glasses would be the same as it now is when he uses a plus lens, i.e., that being nearsighted is like having a plus lens permanently attached to the eye?

Quote
I can understand in theory why a strong plus will help.  My son would of course take it off as quick as I tried to put it on, given he would find it very uncomfortable.

What does he find uncomfortable about wearing a plus lens for extended periods of close work? Does he experience actual discomfort, or does he simply find the glasses a nuisance? Are the plus lenses the correct power for the distance at which he reads?

Quote
However, if he wore it frequently, and even if not at edge of blur, I am sure there would be some impact as you state Francis Young identified.  Just as I believe when you wear minus lenses only for distance, you can not help but occasionally use them for near as well thus giving the wrong sort of stimulation.

I presume this presents no problem at all provided the duration is short. After all, our eyes are designed for looking both near and far. We get into trouble when we fixate on near work and don't give our eyes the variety of experience they need.

Quote
If you wore strong pluses without being trained how, you would probably still occasionally "by accident" stimulate the eyes in exactly the correct way.

It seems to me that a plus lens is helpful for extended periods of reading even if the reading is done inside the blur point because the plus lens reduces the amount of accommodation required.

Offline OtisBrown

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Re: Test Subject N=1 - Passed my Driver's Vision Test
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2013, 07:57:21 AM »
Dear Peter and John,

Subject: The "problem" with Eskimo children - is the SAME problem you are discussing.

You have all the right ideas - and are honest about them.  The "problem" with a child is that he hates wearing a plus lens - under any circumstance.  I accept that as the resaon why children will always make themselves seriously myopic.  No one does this "on purpose".  Further, it is NEVER the "job" of an OD to convince a child (at 20/50, and -1.0) that he should make long-term wearing of a plus a "goal" in his life.  (This is why I don't enter into an argument with an OD - he will just tell you that a strong minus "works" - and why should he want "anything else".)  This is why I argue that a pilot at 20/50 MIGHT take plus-prevention seriously - and wear it - while the rest of us will not.  The fact that the "un-protected" eye goes down by -1/2 diopter - for each year in school - MIGHT help.  But most children and parents will never understand WHY a plus would be wise - when you still have 20/40 vision and don't have to wear a minus - YET.  Here is the data in a simplified format for your review:

http://myopiafree.i-see.org/SaveEye.html

Note: Monkeys living in the wild - have excellent distant vision.  Eskimos who do NO READING have an idential refractive STATE profile. Positive status and 20/20 distant vision.  By our "civilized environment" and refusal to THINK about wearing a plus - this is the result.  I only "argue" for prevention - for people who understand the consequences of NOT passing the 20/40 line (and refusing the wear the plus - at that point).  The Eskimo children became 88 percent myopic.  No one recommended they wear the plus.  People in "medince" argue about the plus.  The stated about "plus-prevention-advocacy" - that the "parents WILL NOT STAND FOR WEARING THE PLUS FOR PREVENTION.  They can also state that the "child" will not "stand for wearing the plus for pure-prevention".  Indeed, I agree.  But never forget the consequences of that rejection.

http://myopiafree.i-see.org/stats2.txt



It has been my experience with my son, that is it almost impossible to motivate him and have him change his habits voluntarily.  He understands what I would like him to do and he has seen the proven benefit at various times.  He knows exactly where the ideal area for reading is, how to identify the edge of blur, and how being just inside it is ideal to prevent further nearsighted development for his eyes.  For those that have succeeded establishing some discipline with their children, I always applaud them.  It is an impressive accomplishment based on my first hand experience.

If your son has 20/20 vision I wonder whether he experientially knows what being nearsightedness is. Have you explained to him that being nearsighted means that his distance vision without any glasses would be the same as it now is when he uses a plus lens, i.e., that being nearsighted is like having a plus lens permanently attached to the eye?

Quote
I can understand in theory why a strong plus will help.  My son would of course take it off as quick as I tried to put it on, given he would find it very uncomfortable.

What does he find uncomfortable about wearing a plus lens for extended periods of close work? Does he experience actual discomfort, or does he simply find the glasses a nuisance? Are the plus lenses the correct power for the distance at which he reads?

Quote
However, if he wore it frequently, and even if not at edge of blur, I am sure there would be some impact as you state Francis Young identified.  Just as I believe when you wear minus lenses only for distance, you can not help but occasionally use them for near as well thus giving the wrong sort of stimulation.

I presume this presents no problem at all provided the duration is short. After all, our eyes are designed for looking both near and far. We get into trouble when we fixate on near work and don't give our eyes the variety of experience they need.

Quote
If you wore strong pluses without being trained how, you would probably still occasionally "by accident" stimulate the eyes in exactly the correct way.

It seems to me that a plus lens is helpful for extended periods of reading even if the reading is done inside the blur point because the plus lens reduces the amount of accommodation required.

Offline peterg

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Re: Test Subject N=1 - Passed my Driver's Vision Test
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2013, 10:39:20 AM »
If your son has 20/20 vision I wonder whether he experientially knows what being nearsightedness is. Have you explained to him that being nearsighted means that his distance vision without any glasses would be the same as it now is when he uses a plus lens, i.e., that being nearsighted is like having a plus lens permanently attached to the eye?

My son is 20/40.  I am pretty sure he would be given a -1 perscription if he went to a regular optometrist today.  It is likely in the last year and a half he's moved from 20/30 to 20/40.  He was measured at school 2 years ago as 20/40 in both eyes which is when I found out he had vision problems.   So at most he is "stable".  I have with various vision training, strategies, and depending on the lighting been able to get him to read 20/20 on the Snellon.  But he is fed up with my efforts, and doesn't want to do anything.

The last behaviour optometrist I went to, indicated that if I am able to keep him about 2 years without a change in his perscription, most optometrists will probably (at least grudgingly) admit I have had some effect with not worsening strengthening his perscription.  But given the way the behavioral optometrist stated it, it sounds like it will be a difficult challenge for me to complete at all.

What does he find uncomfortable about wearing a plus lens for extended periods of close work? Does he experience actual discomfort, or does he simply find the glasses a nuisance? Are the plus lenses the correct power for the distance at which he reads?

When you wear minus lenses, there is no impact to what you see at near or at far.  When you try to wear strong plus lenses, there is a big impact to what you see at far when you have to glance up.  Secondly, when he puts on strong plus lenses, he automatically pulls himself much closer, to the point of being uncomfortable.  He can't keep himself just inside or at least reasonably inside the edge of blur.

Take off your contact lenses and try to experience what he feels when doing near work that way (given you are about 12 inches from the screen).  Or put a strong plus on top of your minus contact and try to understand it from a child's perspective.

Offline OtisBrown

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Re: Test Subject N=1 - Passed my Driver's Vision Test
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2013, 10:57:51 AM »
Dear Peter,

Thanks for your accurate review.  Keeping the minus off his face is most important. The problem is that when he puts it on his face - he leaves it on his face, and "forgets" to take it off.  I has seen people with 20/40 vision - prescribed a -1, -2, and even -3 diopters glasses.  Some ODs "go light" other ODs "go strong".  Eveyone thinks that ODs are "accurate".  I say they are NOT for this reason alone.  Peter,  I know you know Frank Young's data - and that -1/2 diopter per year.  Children don't know their future - and don't want to believe it - either.  I don't know how I would have taken "plus-prevention advocacy" at his age - either.  I don't take this issue as  a "medical problem" at all.  What I do suggest is that if you do everything to "protect" the 20/40 that he has, so he can function with no glasses - until he reaches age 16, and can better understand his choice.  But it will be difficult when he gets down-to 20/60, or about -1.75 diopters.  This is why I "restrict" my advocacy to only 20/60, and would-be pilots entering a four year college.  THERE you can explain to them that they are at 20/50, and -1.00 diopters.  Further, you can explain to them, that IF THEY DO NOTHING, their refractive STATE will go down an additional -1.5 diopters - for a total of -2.5 diopters, and about 20/100.  If *I* were entering a four year college, as a pilot, and a responsible engineer TOLD ME THIS TRUTH - I would take the plus VERY SERIOUSLY - when most of us will not do that.  That is why I advocate an "open and honest" effort for people who can make that type of commitment.  I do not see this as a medical problem - but a personal issue - where we KNOW WHAT WE MUST DO, and choose to not do it - with complete knowlege of what is certain to develop if we can't inspire ourselves to do it.  I RESPECT people who have NO INTEREST IN PREVENTION AT 20/40.  But they they have no one to blame but themselves - for the consequences of their choice.


If your son has 20/20 vision I wonder whether he experientially knows what being nearsightedness is. Have you explained to him that being nearsighted means that his distance vision without any glasses would be the same as it now is when he uses a plus lens, i.e., that being nearsighted is like having a plus lens permanently attached to the eye?

My son is 20/40.  I am pretty sure he would be given a -1 perscription if he went to a regular optometrist today.  It is likely in the last year and a half he's moved from 20/30 to 20/40.  He was measured at school 2 years ago as 20/40 in both eyes which is when I found out he had vision problems.   So at most he is "stable".  I have with various vision training, strategies, and depending on the lighting been able to get him to read 20/20 on the Snellon.  But he is fed up with my efforts, and doesn't want to do anything.

The last behaviour optometrist I went to, indicated that if I am able to keep him about 2 years without a change in his perscription, most optometrists will probably (at least grudgingly) admit I have had some effect with not worsening strengthening his perscription.  But given the way the behavioral optometrist stated it, it sounds like it will be a difficult challenge for me to complete at all.

What does he find uncomfortable about wearing a plus lens for extended periods of close work? Does he experience actual discomfort, or does he simply find the glasses a nuisance? Are the plus lenses the correct power for the distance at which he reads?

When you wear minus lenses, there is no impact to what you see at near or at far.  When you try to wear strong plus lenses, there is a big impact to what you see at far when you have to glance up.  Secondly, when he puts on strong plus lenses, he automatically pulls himself much closer, to the point of being uncomfortable.  He can't keep himself just inside or at least reasonably inside the edge of blur.

Take off your contact lenses and try to experience what he feels when doing near work that way (given you are about 12 inches from the screen).  Or put a strong plus on top of your minus contact and try to understand it from a child's perspective.


Offline johnlink

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Re: Test Subject N=1 - Passed my Driver's Vision Test
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2013, 02:23:42 PM »
When you wear minus lenses, there is no impact to what you see at near or at far.  When you try to wear strong plus lenses, there is a big impact to what you see at far when you have to glance up.  Secondly, when he puts on strong plus lenses, he automatically pulls himself much closer, to the point of being uncomfortable.  He can't keep himself just inside or at least reasonably inside the edge of blur.

I'm wondering whether where you think the edge of your son's blur is where it actually is. I have two questions that I think will help sort this out:

1) What is the power of the glasses your son is using?

2) What is your son's habitual reading distance if he is not trying to do your program of vision improvement (i.e., when he takes off the reading glasses and just does what he wants)?

Quote
Take off your contact lenses and try to experience what he feels when doing near work that way (given you are about 12
inches from the screen).

I do that quite often and it feels fine, except that I have to lean forward to get 12 inches from my monitor that is 22 inches away when I sit upright. But I'm quite flexible so that isn't really a problem.

Quote
Or put a strong plus on top of your minus contact and try to understand it from a child's perspective.

I will do that as soon as my +1.75 glasses arrive from Zenni in a week or so. Those glasses will allow me to sit upright and have my far point just in front of my monitor, giving me a little blur.

Offline johnlink

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Re: Test Subject N=1 - Passed my Driver's Vision Test
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2013, 02:44:59 PM »

On Oct. 12, 2012 I went to get my driver's license renewed and with it I requested a new vision test.  I was measured with both eyes open at 20/30 and with that result I had the corrective lens restriction  removed from my driver’s license.

I started this process of learning about myopia prevention theories about a year ago, and haphazardly began to push print 10 months ago.  I was wearing a perscription of -2L/-2.5R, a perscription which had been stable for about 20 years.  I could barely see the big E (20/200) when I looked at a standard eye chart.


Peter, I just reread your initial post in this thread and now realize that you went from 20/200 or so to 20/30 in about a year. That's an amazing and inspiring accomplishment!

Offline peterg

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Re: Test Subject N=1 - Passed my Driver's Vision Test
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2013, 02:46:19 PM »
I'm wondering whether where you think the edge of your son's blur is where it actually is.

My son is actually pretty intelligent.  He understands where the edge of blur is, and we have measured it several times and use Frauenfelds calculator.  He is happy when he learns he is better than Dad.  Last I checked several week ago he was -.75, but at times has been -1.

I have used Frauenfelds vision calculator diagram to explain where the edge of blur is, and where is just inside the edge when things are very clear.  When I measure him I quiz him to make sure he is just inside the blur point.  He is smart enough to be able to lie though, in order to feel better about his number - I can't be sure about that. 

It is impossible for him to read/write at the edge of blur with +1 at school.  He would need stronger plus in order to be able to do that based on his body size.

1) What is the power of the glasses your son is using?

2) What is your son's habitual reading distance if he is not trying to do your program of vision improvement (i.e., when he takes off the reading glasses and just does what he wants)?

Plus 1 as said above.  And as for 2) his habitual varies but would probably be around 13 inches.  He puts his head down awkwardly when writing, and I've been trying to fix that.  Essentially, I'm struggling very much so to fix his habits which would help alleviate some portion of the strain.

I will do that as soon as my +1.75 glasses arrive from Zenni in a week or so. Those glasses will allow me to sit upright and have my far point just in front of my monitor, giving me a little blur.

You want to be ergonometrically just inside that blur.  Good luck with your efforts. You should have been able to have already tested via drug store glasses.

Offline johnlink

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Re: Test Subject N=1 - Passed my Driver's Vision Test
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2013, 03:46:23 PM »

My son is actually pretty intelligent.  He understands where the edge of blur is, and we have measured it several times and use Frauenfelds calculator.  He is happy when he learns he is better than Dad.  Last I checked several week ago he was -.75, but at times has been -1.


1) What is the power of the glasses your son is using?

2) What is your son's habitual reading distance if he is not trying to do your program of vision improvement (i.e., when he takes off the reading glasses and just does what he wants)?

Plus 1 as said above.  And as for 2) his habitual varies but would probably be around 13 inches.  He puts his head down awkwardly when writing, and I've been trying to fix that.  Essentially, I'm struggling very much so to fix his habits which would help alleviate some portion of the strain.

Let's assume your son is at -1.0, which means that his naked far point is at one meter, or 39 inches. His +1.0 reading glasses bring him to -2.0, which implies a far point of one half of a meter, or 19.5 inches. But he likes to read at 13 inches, which is one third of a meter, or 3 diopters. To bring his far point to one third of a meter he needs reading glasses that are 3 diopters greater than his refractive state of -1.0, i.e., +2.0. I suggest you have your son try +2.0 glasses and see how he feels reading at 13 inches.

So rather than trying to get your son to read at 19.5 inches with +1.00 glasses, let him read at 13 inches with +2.00 glasses.