Author Topic: Is Presbyopia Real ? How to Avoid / Fix it ?  (Read 10029 times)

Offline Steven

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Is Presbyopia Real ? How to Avoid / Fix it ?
« on: January 17, 2013, 06:22:41 AM »
I am curious about one thing.
Myopia and Hyperopia are easy to understands concepts.
Astigmatism seem to go away as you get rid of myopia.

Presbyopia, according to doctors is the loss of elasticity of the crystalline lens AND changes in the lens’s curvature from continual growth and loss of power of the ciliary muscles (the muscles that bend and straighten the lens). It happens between 40 and 50 years old.

Then i read some information here :
http://batesbem.wordpress.com/1930/05/06/presbyopia-its-cause-and-cure-by-w-h-bates-m-d-%E2%80%A8/
http://batesbem.wordpress.com/1930/05/07/methods-that-have-succeeded-in-presbyopia/

What i want to ask Otis Brown for example and others is if they managed to avoid Presbyopia (they can focus near and far clearly).

What is the real cause of Presbyopia ?
What is the fix for it ? (use a minus lens ?)

Thank you.

Offline Steven

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Re: Is Presbyopia Real ? How to Avoid / Fix it ?
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2013, 10:40:58 AM »
Hi Otis,

Very interesting and valuable information i read from you.
My father after 45-47 years old, started to not see well at close distance. Now he is 55.

He got reading glasses, and used them. As time passed he needed stronger and stronger plus for close work.

Right now he needs a +2.5 to see correctly at around 40 cm. And he also needs at least a +1 to see correctly at distance.

What do you make of this ? (that is why i asked about Presbyopia, but could it be really Hyperopia ?)

***

28 inches is about 71.68 cm.
You can't see clear, if you bring things closer to your eyes like when you were young in school. Right ?

***

What should my father do in his case ? Treatment for Hyperopia (use minus glasses, avoid plus) ?
Now that i think about it better, 28 inches is great if the eye, as you get older, can no longer focus on close things.

Thank you again very much.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 10:48:26 AM by Steven »

Offline peterg

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Re: Is Presbyopia Real ? How to Avoid / Fix it ?
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2013, 01:19:44 PM »

And he also needs at least a +1 to see correctly at distance.


That would be very beneficial if I can understand why the presbyope needs a plus to see at distance, like your father.  Is it because their eyes are not converging enough?  Or is it just that they can't accomodate enough to see at distance anymore.

Peter

Offline OtisBrown

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Re: Is Presbyopia Real ? How to Avoid / Fix it ?
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2013, 06:20:42 AM »
Hi Peter,

Subject: Will an OD use a "plus" on a child.

Here is the answer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyQXvFBD-HA

Is wearing the "plus" safe?  Each of us will have to answer that question in his own way.  The problem for the OD is this - he must WAIT until the child is seriously myopic before he "starts" with the bifocal.  But, to me, it makes far more sense, to not "wait" for yourself to become -2 to -3 diopters myopic, and THEN start with the plus.  It makes more sense to START with the plus, and UNDERSTAND IT, and do it yourself.

This is the way it has been for the last 50 years.  The OD is in a position to ONLY REACT - after the "fact".  He is never in a position to ever START with the plus when the child is at 20/40.  In my opinion, this issue needs to be discussed with the parent WHEN the child is at 20/40 and plus-prevention makes sense.  But the issue is always buried.

Otis

Offline peterg

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Re: Is Presbyopia Real ? How to Avoid / Fix it ?
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2013, 11:11:19 AM »
Otis, I am just wondering about generally accepted medical theory on why a presbyope eventually needs plus to see at distance.  I am not really concerning myself on the risk of the plus at near for a myope.   Just curious to understand what causes those with razor sharp distance vision in their pre-presbyopic days to require a plus for distance after they get to about 45/50.   It is quite confusing as it implies the focusing of the lens of the eye is now going further back past the retina.

I can tell you what happened with my cousin a few months ago.  He still had great distance vision, but noticed he was getting headaches and occasionally ended up with traditional pseudomyopia when doing intensive near work for several hours.  He would look up, and see blur.  Eventually it would clear up after a few minutes away from the near work.  He went to an optometrist, and was given +1 readers for near.  The first thing the optometrist said was "you must have headaches all the time".  When the readers were perscribed, he told my cousin in 3-4 years he will need them for distance.   My cousin, anxious to get rid of his  headaches, tried them out right away.  He found that immediately when using them, he saw at distance as well. When he would take them off, it would be blurry in the distance. I told him I didn't really know what he should do.

I suspect Steven is trying to understand a similar situation.  However, thanks for explaining again why an OD will not suggest a plus for a young child.  Just not sure how that relates to the presbyope.

Hi Peter,

Subject: Will an OD use a "plus" on a child.

Here is the answer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyQXvFBD-HA

Is wearing the "plus" safe?  Each of us will have to answer that question in his own way.  The problem for the OD is this - he must WAIT until the child is seriously myopic before he "starts" with the bifocal.  But, to me, it makes far more sense, to not "wait" for yourself to become -2 to -3 diopters myopic, and THEN start with the plus.  It makes more sense to START with the plus, and UNDERSTAND IT, and do it yourself.

This is the way it has been for the last 50 years.  The OD is in a position to ONLY REACT - after the "fact".  He is never in a position to ever START with the plus when the child is at 20/40.  In my opinion, this issue needs to be discussed with the parent WHEN the child is at 20/40 and plus-prevention makes sense.  But the issue is always buried.

Otis


Offline peterg

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Re: Is Presbyopia Real ? How to Avoid / Fix it ?
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2013, 03:59:11 PM »
Hi Peter,

As you know, I don't "care" about myself - as much as I truly cared for my sister's children!!  The "key" for me was finding out that a "bifocal" (plus lens) had been put on children for the last 60 years.  But you know as well as I do, that the OD (if he does not "like" prevention) will "intone" that a plus (worn will no minus) will 1) Cause esophoria, 2) Cause exophoria, 3) Cause "ametropia", 4) Cause more myopia 5) Cause anisomotropia 6) Cause hyperopia, 7) Cause presbyopia. 

I've seen very little of risk written up on-line.  I think most of them just don't go there, because they don't believe it works.  Then they also consider the educational ramification of the child in the classroom that doesn't see at distance.

As you know, I post videos of myself 1) Reading my Snellen 2) Reading the 20/20 line - and much better - although there is no point in me checking.  3) Using a plus lens to find out how long I can read the 20/20 line through a plus lens, until it "just blurs".  4) Check my "range of accomodation" myself.

I will search out the "range of accomodation" video.  If you could post the link, it would be appreciated.

Now, as you get to 60 and 70 years of age, the "range" of that internal lens becomes less.  But at "emmetropia" you will have the same "range of accommodation" that I do (2 diopters) and more.  So you  will (if you understand the optics and physics) will be able to read 20/20 (at emmetropia), and be able to 'accommodate', at 20 inches - with no plus lens.  I can't talk about you cousin's situation - because I don't know him.

I've been thinking about that.  Certainly, I've questioned optometrists whether I will get to a sweet spot, because of my nearsightedness and aging (or presbyopia if you will).  Also, when you read Kaisu Viikari's book, right at the beginning she indicates how much plus is required at the top and the bottom, generally given your age.  It would be nice to time the vision to the right amount as we age.

 Just curious to understand what causes those with razor sharp distance vision in their pre-presbyopic days to require a plus for distance after they get to about 45/50. 

Otis>  I can't explain it.  That is why I recommend that YOU do your own checking. 

OK, so the logic is not clear.  Fair enough.


Offline peterg

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Re: Is Presbyopia Real ? How to Avoid / Fix it ?
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2013, 08:23:01 PM »
Hi Peter,

Subject: A Video showing objective measurements of a "range of accommodation" for my eyes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeULvNESZsM&feature=youtu.be

Hi Otis,

In the video, you mention the 20/25 line is used.  Would I resort to the 20/40 or 20/50 line to test with, given that this range is more or less my "standard" where i could do the test quickly and efficiently like you do in the video.  Or is that an error to do it that way?

Secondly, the total range of accomodation in your case on the video would be shown by continuing to increase minus until you could not read 20/25, and the other way adding plus until the same occured?  So if you could read 20/25 with +1.25 (without effort) and 20/25 with -2.25, your range of accomodation would be 3.5 diopters as an example?

Finally, an off-topic question, but could tonic accomodation be measured by using a dim snellon, and then seeing how much minus is required to clear 20/20 or 20/25?

Peter

Offline Steven

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Re: Is Presbyopia Real ? How to Avoid / Fix it ?
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2013, 03:18:03 PM »
OK, i finally understood how things work with presbyopia.

Otis says that the crystalline lens indeed becomes mature and more hard/stiff as time passes by.
But he still has 2 diopters of accommodation ( meaning he can see close objects at 20 inches / 50 centimeters maximum without problems) while also having 20/20.

At emmetropia at his age his eyes can still accommodate 2 diopters at close work and 2 diopters at distance. (crystalline lens)

Usually when your myopia increases after a certain level your astigmatism also increases.
As you lower your myopia the astigmatism also decreases.

With the plus you don't see things close because the image is formed behind the eye and things seem to be too close to the eye, just like when putting a piece of paper with text at 1-2 cm from a normal eye.

When your Hyperopia gets bigger you need a stronger lens to look at 40 centimeters and when you look far away that "far away" image is still too close to your eyes, so you also need a lower plus to see clear at distance.

As your Hyperopia increases and you need stronger and stronger plus for 40 centimeters you also need to increase the power of the softer plus lens that you used for far images BECAUSE those images are still too close for your hyperopic eye.

In order for my father to reduce his Hyperopia he should avoid his plus lenses and use strong minus lenses. With effort his eyes will reach emmetropia. Correct ?

I would like some feedback on this.
Thank you.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2013, 03:34:47 PM by Steven »

Offline OtisBrown

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Re: Is Presbyopia Real ? How to Avoid / Fix it ?
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2013, 05:04:11 PM »
Dear Intelligent Friends,

Subject: Being "in control" of your life - and your distant vision.

I truly love medical people - no doubt about it. But when it comes to me protecting my distant vision (assumping 20/40, and -1.0 diopters) then I must have the wisdom to take responsiblity to do all these preventive steps myself.  In all cases, therefore, I tallk about self-measurement using my own trial-lens set, and my own Snellen chart.  I am VERY HAPPY with a positive status - of +3/4 to +1.0 diopters.  With a range of accommodation of 2 diopters, it means that I can read my computer screen at about 29 inches with no "plus" on.  In a way you could say that my refractive STATE of +1.0 diopters "wastes" one diopters of my accommodation.  If my refractive STATE were 0.0, I would be able to read the 20/20 line, and read at 20 inches (self measured).  But I am not concerned with that issue.  But a person, who measures his refractive STATE himself, and persistently wears the plus in a disciplined manner, and gets to naked-eye 20/20 (but not naked eye 20/13) has reached a refractive STATE of zero.  At that poine he can quit WEARING THE PLUS, and keep his refractive STATE at exactly zero.  Even with "no lens" his range of accommodation wil be 20/20 at distance, and he will read at 20 inches.  Closer than 20 inchs, or 10 inches - he will need a plus.  I hope this clears this subject up.

Offline Steven

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Re: Is Presbyopia Real ? How to Avoid / Fix it ?
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2013, 07:30:32 AM »
In order for my father to reduce his Hyperopia he should avoid his plus lenses and use strong minus lenses. With effort his eyes will reach emmetropia.

Correct ?

Offline Steven

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Re: Is Presbyopia Real ? How to Avoid / Fix it ?
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2013, 07:54:46 AM »
The question is does someone use minus lenses to make their eyes go from plus, closer to 0 ?

Offline OtisBrown

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Re: Is Presbyopia Real ? How to Avoid / Fix it ?
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2013, 06:21:10 PM »
Reported by an honest and accurate optometrist:

"In the last century, in Russia, minus (concave) glasses were sometimes used to evade military conscription. A few months before the appearance for army examination, the conscript went to an optical doctor and got a pair of strong minus glasses which he wore steadily until prior to the examination. He was then sure that he would be rejected on account of his vision. The minus glasses has changed the focal status of his eyes and made his distant vision very poor."
++++

It was this clear statement - that truly got me asking questions about the wisdom of wearing a minus lens.  Yes, I know that the minus is considered "perfect".  But if this statement is true (as pure science), then the reality is that we 1) Put our nose on the book for YEARS, and 2) Our refractive STATE moves SLOWLY NEGATIVE.  Then 3)  we never notice, but a person puts a minus in front of our normal eyes - and WOW - THAT IS GREAT!!

But the negative STATE we self-induce (by long-term near)  is always our-fault, and always self-induced.  The "minus" can only make matters far worse.  These facts are truly depressing - but they begin to point to the need to 1) Avoid the minus 2) SIT UP 3) Wear the plus before your Snellen goes below 20/40 to 20/50. For me, the minus is indeed, "poison glasses for children" - but few people can figure out WHY they are poison.

 

 
 
 

Offline Steven

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Re: Is Presbyopia Real ? How to Avoid / Fix it ?
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2013, 12:28:33 AM »
So it's yes.

Offline Hillyman

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Re: Is Presbyopia Real ? How to Avoid / Fix it ?
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2013, 09:24:26 PM »
Just to throw another puzzle into the mix: what is this exercise all about? Is it effective in reversing presbyopa? It was developed by an OD (!).

http://www.i-see.org/gottlieb/presbyopia_chart.pdf

Offline Hillyman

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Re: Is Presbyopia Real ? How to Avoid / Fix it ?
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2013, 05:18:17 PM »

I am not a "fan" of "exercise".  Further, I have 20/20 in the distance, and 20/20 at 28 inches - and I am a great deal older than 52 years. Quite frankly, "Presbyopia" is not a concern of mine - only personally verifying that I read the 20/20 line at 20 feet.


Come now, Otis. Presbyopia is not a matter of reading 20/20 line at 20 feet. It's whether you can read small print at 16-20 inches with your distance vision or correction. Those of us with presbyopia have to use plus lenses to read at the normal desk distance. Of course, if you have a habit of using plus lens--to preserve your distance vision;no one can argue with you there--you would not be "concerned" about presbyopia because you are effectively using the same method that presbyopes have to resort to in order to get around the presbyopia!

*You* may not be a fan of exercise, but I posted the link as an inquiry to others in the forum. The crossed-eye approach is unusual, but it is similar to another one called the "Three Cups" in the Bershak method. So it's very intriguing to have someone (an OD, yet) recommending this approach for reducing presbyopia (essentially expanding the accommodation range "inwards" towards oneself) and another recommending it for reducing myopia (expanding the accommodation range "outwards" towards the horizon).