Advice to PROH & others

[Steven]

From : http://forum.gettingstronger.org/index.php/topic,417.msg3396.html#msg3396

Hi Steven

I am much worse than you .  Normally I keep

1) A pair by which I have 20/20 in day  20/25 in low light & use it outside for driving or for the moments when I need to have a clear image . Never use it indoor & close work.

2) Second pair by which I have 20/40 & use it outside for normal purpose & watching TV.

3) Third pair  by which I can read at about 40-60 cm my laptop for work.

Always try to balance both eye equally or somethimes give more privilege to weak . means if I have a strong & weak eye I keep the same difference of  power in each pair so that both eye work equally , otherwise the strong eye may improve faster than weak eye.

Normally order specs online to reduce cost

Proh

So, first tell me what is your current :
20/20 prescription in diopters.
20/40 in diopters.
The low lens for 40-60cm near work in diopters.

Do you also have any astigmatism ?

[OtisBrown]

Hi Steven,

Actually your evaluations have been a great value to me.  You PROVE how much you are over-prescribed.  With about a -1.75 you would exceed the 20/40 line, and probably pass the 20/20 line - by PERSONAL verification.

You current prescription (spherical) is for 3.25, or ALMOST DOUBLE WHAT IS NECESSARY.  I congratulate you for having the courage to ACTUALLY CHECK both your Snellen, and your refractive STATE - YOURSELF.  Most people are TOO TIMID, OR TOO IMTIMIDATED to even do that much - tragically.

I always knew there was over-prescription - I just never knew how much.  Over-prescription always "kills" the natural eye - as far as I am concerned.

Otis

[PROH]

Hi Steven

 My Last official prescription was in may 2012 ( L=-5.0, CYL=-0.75 R = -4.25 , CYL =-1.0 ) & was binocular 20/17

Now I have only home measured values 

1 I am 20/20 or         with L= -4.25 , R = -3.25
                                 CYL= -0.5  , CYL = -0.5

2) around 20/40  with L=-3.75 , R= -2.75 ( I am not using any CLY, as my axis of both eyes are 90 degree to each other  & compensate in binocular vision  )

3) reading laptop at around 43cm using  L= -1.5 R = -0.5

Proh
 

[Steven]

Hi Steven

 My Last official prescription was in may 2012 ( L=-5.0, CYL=-0.75 R = -4.25 , CYL =-1.0 ) & was binocular 20/17

Now I have only home measured values  

1 I am 20/20 or         with L= -4.25 , R = -3.25
                                 CYL= -0.5  , CYL = -0.5

2) around 20/40  with L=-3.75 , R= -2.75 ( I am not using any CLY, as my axis of both eyes are 90 degree to each other  & compensate in binocular vision  )

3) reading laptop at around 43cm using  L= -1.5 R = -0.5

Proh
 

OK,
Remember that i started fixing my problems when i was -4 spherical in both eyes and -2 CLY both eyes. (20/20)

First what you need is motivation and this will motivate you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retinal_detachment

"The lifetime risk in normal individuals is about 1 in 300"

"Retinal detachment is more common in people with severe myopia (above 5–6 diopters), in whom the retina is more thinly stretched. In such patients, lifetime risk rises to 1 in 20. About two-thirds of cases of retinal detachment occur in myopics. Myopic retinal detachment patients tend to be younger than non-myopic ones."

So wearing a -5 will most likely result in a big chance to get blind when doing any kind of effort, and you do not want that to happen.

Another good thing to do is to try and no longer wear different glasses for each eye. Most of the image is formed anyway in the brain by the dominant eye. I assume in your case the dominant eye is your right one. Correct ?

Using different diopters for each eye creates problems in the perceived depth of field when you take your glasses off. If the weaker eye has a lower lens it will actually heal faster ! The only thing that makes it stay weak compared to the dominant eye is the higher minus lens that you use.

1. Forget about your 20/20 glasses (L = -4.25 , R = -3.25). Every time you put them on and focus on anything but infinity your eyes will become more myopic.

2. If you need to drive a car and you have a pair of glasses that gives you the legal vision 20/40 (you can read the letters but the image is not perfectly clear) you should use them only for driving.

For example if -2.5 for both eyes gives you 20/40 you should use them for driving the car.

3. The laptop thing is tricky. Why ? On a normal monitor you can get as close as you want without glasses, but on a laptop it's much harder to move your head closer to the screen without neck pain.

So here is the plan i would do if i were you.

1. Buy a very strong plus you can find for little money. At least a +2.5 or more.
2. Buy a -2.5 for both eyes for driving if you are able to read the 20/40 line (even if it's blurred). Remember the image is build mostly by the dominant eye. So even if you put no lens on the weaker eye you should still be able to see 20/40.
3. When you are home never use any minus glasses. When you go in the park never use any glasses. When you use the computer never use any minus glasses.
4. Now, in order to greatly accelerate the process of reducing myopia you need to wear the strong plus lens when you are at home or taking a walk in the park (or staying on a bench in the park or near your home) for as long as possible.

This will bring your eyes around -2.75 right one -3 left one (20/20) in no more then 1 month.
The more you avoid the minus lens and the the stronger the plus lens is, the faster the fix.

If you don't need to drive forget about the minus lens altogether. Use the 20/40 minus only for the ultra important activities. Otherwise use the plus and no minus glasses.

[OtisBrown]

Hi Steven,

Subject: The REAL story here - is YOU!

You know I OBJECTIVELY read 20/20 on my Snellen.  I do no "lie" about it - you can see me doing it.  Further, I do not "mis-represent" my refractive STATE - you can see me measure it.  We are hear - BECAUSE TODD WAS SUCCESSFUL.  We believe him, because he objectively passes the STATE DMV - by there testing standards.  I believe YOU, because you looked at your Snellen and read the 20/60 line (for now).

REAL SUCCESS FOR YOU.  You have the easiest job for the next three months. 1) Don't wear a minus lens.  2) But have the Snellen up permanently - with bright light on it for consistent reading. 3) PLAN that it will take about one to two months to PASS the 20/50 line. 4) Begin reading THROUGH a +1.0 diopter lens in about one month.  5) Report, on your status, and your "thoughts" as you go  through this long-term process.

This is all about YOU.  It is not about me or anyone else.  Only YOU will know and trust the results.  You  have the potential to achieve what Todd has accomplished - and by being successful - you will be a leader.  Proh, Peter, Shadow-foot will all appreciate and understand you example and success - when it happens.

[PROH]

Hi Steven

First of all thanks for your kind advice
I have to understand & digest you suggestions .
I have doubts for some points & will be come back with more points to discuss .


Regards
Proh

[Steven]

I started at -4 both eyes (20/20), now i am -2.5 both eyes (20/20).

I have legal documents to prove that my eyes are now -2.5

So, i am not making this up.

Go ahead ask me anything.

[OtisBrown]

Hi Steven and Proh,

Subject: Professionals - who support prevention at 20/60 and better.

I totally support this man - and wish there were more like them - who would have helped me wear the plus when I was at 20/50 and 20/60 (about -1.5 diopters).  Each of us forms his own judgment.

http://frauenfeldclinic.com/eight-great-hobbies-to-improve-your-eyesight-2/

I say this, I can open the door, and HOLD IT OPEN, but only YOU CAN WALK THROUGH IT.

Best,

[peterg]

I started at -4 both eyes (20/20), now i am -2.5 both eyes (20/20).

I have legal documents to prove that my eyes are now -2.5

So, i am not making this up.

What do you mean by legal documents?  A perscription?

Did you have a stronger perscription than -4 given you were 20/20 and not 20/15 or 20/13 with that value?

As for making it up, I don't think he or others question you on that.   After 1 year of "education" my theory is that it's pretty standard for a person with myopia who sets on a motivated quest to improve, that this person will fairly easily be able to shave between .75 and 1.25D.  While this will be an extraordinary achievement for the person himself, I've come to the "conclusion" that it is unremarkable, and when I state is that way I do so only because I feel it is likely fairly doable for most neglected myopes.  I don't know your story, but you have shaved 1.5D, which I suggest likely puts you in the higher percentile of initial success, if that improvement was part of that short, rapid, initial improvement.  If some of it was longer term follow on improvement, I commend you on succeeding on that more difficult task.

Best of luck on your long term quest!

Peter

[PROH]

Hi Steven Otis Peter & other

1. Forget about your 20/20 glasses (L = -4.25 , R = -3.25). Every time you put them on and focus on anything but infinity your eyes will become more myopic.

2. If you need to drive a car and you have a pair of glasses that gives you the legal vision 20/40 (you can read the letters but the image is not perfectly clear) you should use them only for driving.

Although I agree that 20/40 may be legally correct . But think of a situation.A person was driving years with 20/20 ( or more 20/15) with strong minus glasses & switch to a pair which gives just 20/40 .  In this case his  corrected vision is dropped at least to half or more .( 2X to 3X ). This sudden reduction is going make a huge impact on safety when driving. Why

1) Driving is a skill which we acquire over a period & all the reflexes are set as a complete system of coordination of eyes , hands, legs & ears.
2) Any sudden change in our vision will impact this co ordination & brain will re learn to new response system which it will eventually  but takes time.
3) A drop in vision capability,  the response time has to be adjusted. Ex seeing something on highway & application of brake.
4) More is your age more the brain will take time to readjust .


My feeling is we should not play for the safety of own and others & modify specs gradually. like first 20/25  then after some time 20/30 & then 20/40 . But this can cost more or
When switch directly to 20/40 drive slowly with the areas which does not need fast response avoiding highways & specially at low light. Continue this for some time . Then first go to highways in good day light once acquired with for sometime then drive in low light or in night. Till get accustomed use the old specs of 20/20 for low light driving.

 Do not  keep switching between 20/20 & 20/40. Try to keep them at a similar value.

Please have your opinions


Proh

[Steven]

I started at -4 both eyes (20/20), now i am -2.5 both eyes (20/20).

I have legal documents to prove that my eyes are now -2.5

So, i am not making this up.

What do you mean by legal documents?  A perscription?

Did you have a stronger perscription than -4 given you were 20/20 and not 20/15 or 20/13 with that value?

As for making it up, I don't think he or others question you on that.   After 1 year of "education" my theory is that it's pretty standard for a person with myopia who sets on a motivated quest to improve, that this person will fairly easily be able to shave between .75 and 1.25D.  While this will be an extraordinary achievement for the person himself, I've come to the "conclusion" that it is unremarkable, and when I state is that way I do so only because I feel it is likely fairly doable for most neglected myopes.  I don't know your story, but you have shaved 1.5D, which I suggest likely puts you in the higher percentile of initial success, if that improvement was part of that short, rapid, initial improvement.  If some of it was longer term follow on improvement, I commend you on succeeding on that more difficult task.

Best of luck on your long term quest!

Peter

Legal documents means a prescription in this case.
The message is very clear.
http://forum.gettingstronger.org/index.php/topic,420.msg3435.html#msg3435

Hi Steven Otis Peter & other

1. Forget about your 20/20 glasses (L = -4.25 , R = -3.25). Every time you put them on and focus on anything but infinity your eyes will become more myopic.

2. If you need to drive a car and you have a pair of glasses that gives you the legal vision 20/40 (you can read the letters but the image is not perfectly clear) you should use them only for driving.

Although I agree that 20/40 may be legally correct . But think of a situation.A person was driving years with 20/20 ( or more 20/15) with strong minus glasses & switch to a pair which gives just 20/40 .  In this case his  corrected vision is dropped at least to half or more .( 2X to 3X ). This sudden reduction is going make a huge impact on safety when driving. Why

1) Driving is a skill which we acquire over a period & all the reflexes are set as a complete system of coordination of eyes , hands, legs & ears.
2) Any sudden change in our vision will impact this co ordination & brain will re learn to new response system which it will eventually  but takes time.
3) A drop in vision capability,  the response time has to be adjusted. Ex seeing something on highway & application of brake.
4) More is your age more the brain will take time to readjust .

My feeling is we should not play for the safety of own and others & modify specs gradually. like first 20/25  then after some time 20/30 & then 20/40 . But this can cost more or
When switch directly to 20/40 drive slowly with the areas which does not need fast response avoiding highways & specially at low light. Continue this for some time . Then first go to highways in good day light once acquired with for sometime then drive in low light or in night. Till get accustomed use the old specs of 20/20 for low light driving.

 Do not  keep switching between 20/20 & 20/40. Try to keep them at a similar value.

Please have your opinions


Proh

Your myopia will only get worse if you don't avoid the minus and use a strong plus lens when doing nothing.
It's as simple as that.

If you don't have the will, the determination and the knowledge of how to do it, you will never succeed.
That is what happens when you let doctors mess-up with your eyes and turn you into a total blind person.

[peterg]

Your myopia will only get worse if you don't avoid the minus and use a strong plus lens when doing nothing.
It's as simple as that.

While I don't have records to prove it, I feel I'm struggling with my intermediate focusing distance which I believe was not as difficult when I first started improving just by doing naked eye work.  That is I am struggling more now with my fusion of images.  I feel this has become more difficult since I started using the plus lens, or at least has coincided with when I started using a plus lens occasionally but daily for near.  Generally, I think my ability to focus at my snellon at 20 feet was marginally better prior to the use of the plus lens.  Again, just what I feel has happened and I don't know what I could have done to record this in order to try to evaluate whether it has actually happened.  Right now, I think I need to spend a lot of effort on something like a brock string excercise to try to  restore some of that capability.   I cannot discount that I have had some impact on my AC:A or AC:C ratios.

[OtisBrown]

Hi Steven and Peter,

Subject:  My response and support.

Steven - you are totally correct.  It is tragic that "doctors" judge that you will ONLY understand a quick-fix minus, AND NOTHING ELSE.

Steven> Your myopia will only get worse if you don't avoid the minus and use a strong plus lens when doing nothing.
It's as simple as that.

Otis> It is that simply. But just TRY to get a person to understand and do it - systematically. That proves to be almost impossible.

Steven> If you don't have the will, the determination and the knowledge of how to do it, you will never succeed.
That is what happens when you let doctors mess-up with your eyes and turn you into a total blind person.

Otis> This almost happened to me.  This is why I "built a fire" under my nephew, to, when he saw "blur out there" to, for God's sake, WEAR THE PLUS FOR ALL CLOSE WORK.  What truly "kills" the eye, it the arrogance of "prescribing" a -2 diopter, for a person who VERIFIES 20/40 to 20/50 on his Snellen. It is AT THAT POINT, that the person himself can 'win" his distant vision back - even though it take nine months to do it.  The problem with most people, is that they "get tired" or "afraid" of wearing the plus - and that ENDS THEIR EFFORT, PERMANENTLY, I AM SORRY TO SAY. Some special "spark" must keep you going - to be successful.


For Peter:

Peter "came back" from -2.25 diotpers. He passes the STATE DMV test, objectively. He "stuck" with it. For me, passing that 20/40 line defines objective success. IN MY OPINION, if he needed to qualify as an FAA Pilot, he would have to continue with agressive wearing of a plus - as I am doing it.  But I don't "fear" the wearing of a plus, and I personally verify my Snellen and refractive state - because I know no one is concerned about my vision. Peter is a friend - he understands all this - so let me add my commentary:

Your myopia will only get worse if you don't avoid the minus and use a strong plus lens when doing nothing.
It's as simple as that.

Peter> While I don't have records to prove it, I feel I'm struggling with my intermediate focusing distance which I believe was not as difficult when I first started improving just by doing naked eye work.  That is I am struggling more now with my fusion of images. 

 I feel this has become more difficult since I started using the plus lens, or at least has coincided with when I started using a plus lens occasionally but daily for near. 

Otis>  I respect your concerns.  I check my near vision on a daily basis, as well as "convergence".  In fact, I can independently control my "convergence" - so that is not a "fear" for me.  But equally I respect your concerns.

Generally, I think my ability to focus at my snellon at 20 feet was marginally better prior to the use of the plus lens.  Again, just what I feel has happened and I don't know what I could have done to record this in order to try to evaluate whether it has actually happened. 

Otis>  Peter did two items that I recommend to everyone.  1) Get a Snellen set up at 20 feet, and see if you can read the 20/40 line. 2) Get some low-cost "test" minus lenses, so you can determine your refractive STATE yourself.  At least we then talk a "common language", with an exact understanding of our objective measurements.  Kudos to Peter for doing that.

 Right now, I think I need to spend a lot of effort on something like a brock string excercise to try to  restore some of that capability.   I cannot discount that I have had some impact on my AC:A or AC:C ratios.

Otis> I learned to do this as a young man.  I can "break fusion" at will - and restore it. Here is where a "Pilot", will CONTINUE with the plus, even though he might "fear" some effect.  I am not a "critic" here, because I do respect these "concerns" - but the person himself must address and  understand them.  If fact, it a deeper sense, this is why no OD can "prescribe" plus-prevention, because the person himself will "fear" that which he does not understand.  I truly do not expect any OD to be able to help with plus-prevention.

Otis> As always, it is VERY HELPFUL to put all these issues "on the table" so we understand them!  Objective SUCCESS is Peter going down and passing the STATE DMV. 

[PROH]

Hi Steven  Otis

It seems I was not clear in my last post .
My intention was to say that for safe driving we should continue to use the glasses of 20/20 or 20/25 till we accustomed our response system for 20/40 .
Can you please reply me on this point .

Proh

[Steven]

Hi Steven  Otis

It seems I was not clear in my last post .
My intention was to say that for safe driving we should continue to use the glasses of 20/20 or 20/25 till we accustomed our response system for 20/40 .
Can you please reply me on this point .

Proh

Bad idea, use a lens that gives you 20/40 and drive prudently.
With the 20/20 or 20/25 ( Every time you put them on and focus on anything but infinity your eyes will become more myopic )

In time the 20/40 lens will give you 20/20, as your eye improves.
If you use the plus as i told you and avoid the minus in 1 week you will see improvements with the 20/40 lens already.