Author Topic: Why do we LOVE the minus - and hate the plus?  (Read 7834 times)

Offline OtisBrown

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Why do we LOVE the minus - and hate the plus?
« on: March 02, 2013, 10:35:45 AM »
Dear Friends,

Subject:  For the great mass of humanity - the minus lens always works. Why do we love it?

I will open this up to all posters - I would like to hear their thoughts on the subject.  You tell me why you are in fear of the plus (assuming you read the 20/50 line OK.

Offline trw

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Re: Why do we LOVE the minus - and hate the plus?
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2013, 11:20:53 AM »
It would seem that the minus lens is a quick fix to a problem. the plus creates a fuzzier image and thus the rewards are far away while the minus offers instant improvement. It takes discipline and continuous and deliberate effort to wear the plus properly over an extended period of time to get the benefits. I personally have been sticking with it for about a year now ever since I have learned of it.

Offline johnlink

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Re: Why do we LOVE the minus - and hate the plus?
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2013, 01:47:25 PM »
It would seem that the minus lens is a quick fix to a problem. the plus creates a fuzzier image and thus the rewards are far away while the minus offers instant improvement. It takes discipline and continuous and deliberate effort to wear the plus properly over an extended period of time to get the benefits. I personally have been sticking with it for about a year now ever since I have learned of it.

What results have you observed?

Offline trw

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Re: Why do we LOVE the minus - and hate the plus?
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2013, 06:08:22 PM »
After a year or so of consistently wearing the plus, significant improvements in clarity have occurred. Exercises and practicing good habits have been used in addition with the plus and I do attribute improvement to the plus alone. So not only does it stop the progression in near point situations, but it also seems to be changing the form of the eyes by a certain margin. I plan to keep using them and implement other tools for maximum improvements to occur.

Offline johnlink

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Re: Why do we LOVE the minus - and hate the plus?
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2013, 06:10:34 PM »
After a year or so of consistently wearing the plus, significant improvements in clarity have occurred.

How many diopters of improvement have you made?

Offline trw

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Re: Why do we LOVE the minus - and hate the plus?
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2013, 07:14:32 PM »
Well, for that I am not really sure. I haven't had an official eye exam since I've started. I know some improvements have occurred because the latest Rx is too strong. I have tried on lesser strengths and they are as clear and would have me reach 20/20 I'm sure. I would estimate that I've made .50 diopter in each eye. It doesn't seem like much, and I suppose it's not, but I am patient since I realize it took 30 years of bad habits to get to this state, and that reversing it completely won't happen even after just a few years. I am in it for as long as it takes! Oh, and I might get an eye exam done and will report the exact changes if that happens.

Offline peterg

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Re: Why do we LOVE the minus - and hate the plus?
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2013, 09:34:25 PM »
After a year or so of consistently wearing the plus, significant improvements in clarity have occurred.

How many diopters of improvement have you made?

Hi John, technically I went naked eye when I had a -2.25R, -2L perscription for near (computer work and reading).  Technically that is the equivalent to wearing the plus.  My eyes improved to -1.25R/L in about 6 weeks, however not confirmed by on OD until 3 months later.  I could barely see the big E on the snellon when I started.

If your current perscription is such that you can read without minus glasses, even at 12-13 inches, I suggest you begin with that first and only use your minus when you need them, such as for driving. You will probably need to get test lenses, or at least plus lenses of some sort to validate when you can see 20/20 with the weakest possible minus lens. You might be able to swing this by putting drugstore plus on top of your minus perscription and testing that way.  The objective is to find the correct perscription. 

Using the snellon plus using Fraenfeld's myopia calculator, you should be able to determine what minus you need for for safe driving.  If you follow Frauenfeld's idea, and I think Todd writings are somewhat similar, you can also use a somewhat reduced perscription that puts you at 20/30 or so for times you don't need absolute best accuity.

Good luck.

Peter

Offline johnlink

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Re: Why do we LOVE the minus - and hate the plus?
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2013, 05:40:38 AM »
I went naked eye when I had a -2.25R, -2L perscription for near (computer work and reading).

Peter, I understand you mean that when your prescription was -2.25R -2L you went naked eye for near work. Is that right? That makes sense, since your prescription, if just enough to give you 20/20, implies a far point of about 17 to 19 inches, perfect for working at a computer.

Using Equation 2 in http://forum.gettingstronger.org/index.php/topic,443.0.html I would estimate that you were between 20/130 and 20/150. What did you use for distance, including for driving?

Quote
Technically that is the equivalent to wearing the plus.  My eyes improved to -1.25R/L in about 6 weeks, however not confirmed by on OD until 3 months later.  I could barely see the big E on the snellon when I started.

That's great progress! Again using Equation 2 in http://forum.gettingstronger.org/index.php/topic,443.0.html I would estimate that you were now at about 20/60.

Quote
If your current perscription is such that you can read without minus glasses, even at 12-13 inches, I suggest you begin with that first and only use your minus when you need them, such as for driving.

My far point is at about 12 to 13 inches so I can work on the computer without my contacts but my monitor is about 22 inches away so I need to lean in. I often do that, but I'd rather be able to sit upright. If I'm wearing my contacts for close work I will now ALWAYS use the +1.75 reading glasses that will soon arrive from www.zennioptical.com. Those glasses, in combination with my contacts, will put my far point just in front of my monitor, giving me a little blur.

Quote
You will probably need to get test lenses, or at least plus lenses of some sort to validate when you can see 20/20 with the weakest possible minus lens. You might be able to swing this by putting drugstore plus on top of your minus perscription and testing that way. The objective is to find the correct perscription. 

Using the snellon plus using Fraenfeld's myopia calculator, you should be able to determine what minus you need for for safe driving.  If you follow Frauenfeld's idea, and I think Todd writings are somewhat similar, you can also use a somewhat reduced perscription that puts you at 20/30 or so for times you don't need absolute best accuity.

For distance I'm going to stick with my current contacts that give me 20/20 and see what effect the +1.75 reading glasses create. Then in a month or so I will exchange my contacts for contacts with a weaker prescription. I wonder what would be the optimal weakening of the prescription in order to get the fastest improvement (and be safe for driving). Might it be .25D (20/25), .50D (20/30), .75D (20/35), or 1.00D (20/40)?

Last night I watched a movie on a large-screen TV while wearing +1.25 glasses over my contacts. Using Equation 2 in http://forum.gettingstronger.org/index.php/topic,443.0.html I would estimate that I was at about 20/60. The image was fairly blurred, but of course clearer than if I had used my naked eyes. I think I will repeat that experiment, maybe using +1.0 glasses over my contacts which would put me at about 20/40.

Two pieces of information I'd like to add:

1) www.1800contacts.com gives full credit for unused contacts, so I will be able to exchange my contacts as I make progress.

2) I live in Manhattan, don't own a car, and drive only a few times each year. However, I ride my bike about every other day and for that I need vision as good as for driving. I find that my vision is better after riding my bike, probably because I'm constantly and rapidly changing my focal length and always moving my gaze.

Offline OtisBrown

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Re: Why do we LOVE the minus - and hate the plus?
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2013, 06:38:39 AM »
Dear Peter and friends,

Subject: My great appreciation for Peter's successful efforts.

As far as I am concerned the minus is "dangerous", and you should be informed of this fact - before you start wearing it all the time.  I think that personally exceeding the 20/40 line (and objectively passing the required DMV line - is excellent success).

I also agree that I must get my own minus lens (if at 20/30) and use it under *my* control - as Peter is doing it.  This is a very personal aspect of prevention - which is "do it yourself" - that removes the subject matter from optometry - and "empowers" the person.

I know that each one of us has his own "motivational level" - as Peter does.  I "coach" pilots in the use of the plus - with the goal to exceed the 20/40 line - as a first indication of success.  To go from 20/40 to 20/20 - is a change of +1.0 diopters, and takes about 9 months of TOTAL PLUS LENS WEARING.  A pilot will do that - where most others lack the motivation to do it - and measure their refractive STATE as they are doing it. 

Again, thanks Peter - you are of great help to all of us!


After a year or so of consistently wearing the plus, significant improvements in clarity have occurred.

How many diopters of improvement have you made?

Hi John, technically I went naked eye when I had a -2.25R, -2L perscription for near (computer work and reading).  Technically that is the equivalent to wearing the plus.  My eyes improved to -1.25R/L in about 6 weeks, however not confirmed by on OD until 3 months later.  I could barely see the big E on the snellon when I started.

If your current perscription is such that you can read without minus glasses, even at 12-13 inches, I suggest you begin with that first and only use your minus when you need them, such as for driving. You will probably need to get test lenses, or at least plus lenses of some sort to validate when you can see 20/20 with the weakest possible minus lens. You might be able to swing this by putting drugstore plus on top of your minus perscription and testing that way.  The objective is to find the correct perscription. 

Using the snellon plus using Fraenfeld's myopia calculator, you should be able to determine what minus you need for for safe driving.  If you follow Frauenfeld's idea, and I think Todd writings are somewhat similar, you can also use a somewhat reduced perscription that puts you at 20/30 or so for times you don't need absolute best accuity.

Good luck.

Peter

Offline peterg

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Re: Why do we LOVE the minus - and hate the plus?
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2013, 03:39:18 PM »
John, I recommend you get registered with Frauenfeld.  The quality of his resources are unparalleled in my opinion.  There are a few people in the forum over there that are currently undergoing significant changes.

Peter, I understand you mean that when your prescription was -2.25R -2L you went naked eye for near work. Is that right? That makes sense, since your prescription, if just enough to give you 20/20, implies a far point of about 17 to 19 inches, perfect for working at a computer.

I started off with the computer screen at 13-14 inches.  It was very uncomfortable and a real challenge initially.  The first few days I was stumbling about, catching myself coming up too close when work was stressful, and then at those instances realizing it was better to put on the distance glasses until the work stress passed.  Within a few days I started seeing my edge of blur was moving out further.  I was doing distance pulling as much as I could.

Using Equation 2 in http://forum.gettingstronger.org/index.php/topic,443.0.html I would estimate that you were between 20/130 and 20/150. What did you use for distance, including for driving?

That might be correct.  I estimate I was at most 20/150 because I though I could see the big E.  But when looking at the big E (20/200) it was extremely blurry and I would be lying if I said it was a good quality E I was seeing.  More like a triple or quadruple layered E.

That's great progress! Again using Equation 2 in http://forum.gettingstronger.org/index.php/topic,443.0.html I would estimate that you were now at about 20/60.

What I have learned from all the ODs that I've spoken to that believe in the potential for myopia improvement, and from Alex Frauenfeld, and from my own experience, and even from Otis, is that everyone will be different and respond differently.  It is hard to say if I am 20/60.  Depending on conditions, I read 20/40 or 20/50 on my snellon, so I estimate 20/45.  If I slightly stimulate or warm up my eyes, I usually read 20/20 to 20/30.

If I become "20/15" at rest, I am fairly certain my eyesight will not be as good as the person with fully corrected vision nor as good as the person who has had 20/15 or even 20/20 uncorrected eyesight all their life.  That is my theory or expectation.  I believe my challenge is my brain and eyes are not fully in sync in working together in an involuntary fashion.  I believe years of wearing my minus lens has made this challenge more pronounced.   Again, just my opinion.  Even after having understood from an OD how that is not possible on i-see.org forum.

My far point is at about 12 to 13 inches so I can work on the computer without my contacts but my monitor is about 22 inches away so I need to lean in. I often do that, but I'd rather be able to sit upright. If I'm wearing my contacts for close work I will now ALWAYS use the +1.75 reading glasses that will soon arrive from www.zennioptical.com. Those glasses, in combination with my contacts, will put my far point just in front of my monitor, giving me a little blur.

There is no right or wrong way.  Frauenfeld discusses the issue with contacts and plus lenses several times in his
forum (issues with distortion for example).  He has suggested that based on the years of experience in his clinic, multiple glasses at the same time are not the most ideal way to go.

My opinion is, if you can bring your monitor closer so as not to affect your ergonometrics, than that is the better way to go.  The one thing Frauenfeld has discussed, is that you don't need a lot of stimulus - I went over the top based on how he recommends people to go about it.  Todd also says the same, although less formally.  If I was starting again, I'd definately give Frauenfeld's suggestions a go.

Peter

Offline Steven

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Re: Why do we LOVE the minus - and hate the plus?
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2013, 03:48:39 PM »
peterg, when you reach 20/15 you will see exactly like someone who saw all their life at 20/15. Indeed the limit is your brain and your own thoughts so my friendly advice is to not impose limitations on yourself.

The only barriers that exist are the ones you create with your own mind. The choices you make are influencing your progress. So be optimistic if you want to see positive results.

Offline peterg

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Re: Why do we LOVE the minus - and hate the plus?
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2013, 05:09:07 PM »
Steve - have a read on Shadowfoot's comments on this.  He has achieved 20/15 and readily admits that it is very frustrating that others with glasses or already perfect vision are outseeing him.

I think most of the "providers" or "promoters" of the vision improvement game, will attest to the same.  I have my own experiences with flash distance vision which I know is 20/15 or at least 20/20.  It's a different experience than looking at distance in my specs.

peterg, when you reach 20/15 you will see exactly like someone who saw all their life at 20/15. Indeed the limit is your brain and your own thoughts so my friendly advice is to not impose limitations on yourself.

The only barriers that exist are the ones you create with your own mind. The choices you make are influencing your progress. So be optimistic if you want to see positive results.

Offline OtisBrown

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Re: Why do we LOVE the minus - and hate the plus?
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2013, 05:30:39 PM »
Hi Steve and Peter,

Subject: Excellent distant vision - requires that you have a SLIGHT postive refractive STATE.

I strongly recommend that you have a Snellen with good light set up as I have demonstrated it  in my video.  My vision also "varies".  It is almost always 20/20, and in fact probablly 20/18 to 20/15.  (i.e., I can step back to 30 feet and still read the 20/20 line.)  But I am not concerned with this so-called "perfect" vision.  I am VERY HAPPY THAT I CAN DO THAT.  But I truly judge my refractive STATE by being able to read the 20/20 line THROUGH a +1/2 diopter lens. 

If you have a goal - then I think that is "ideal vision".  Perhaps not "perfect" - but I think you can make yourself crazy if you demand "perfect vision".  But, for the record, Shadowfoot got to "perfect vision" with a plus.  Since he is very happy with his success - we don't hear from him anymore. That is the true nature of PERSONAL SUCCESS.


Steve - have a read on Shadowfoot's comments on this.  He has achieved 20/15 and readily admits that it is very frustrating that others with glasses or already perfect vision are outseeing him.

I think most of the "providers" or "promoters" of the vision improvement game, will attest to the same.  I have my own experiences with flash distance vision which I know is 20/15 or at least 20/20.  It's a different experience than looking at distance in my specs.

peterg, when you reach 20/15 you will see exactly like someone who saw all their life at 20/15. Indeed the limit is your brain and your own thoughts so my friendly advice is to not impose limitations on yourself.

The only barriers that exist are the ones you create with your own mind. The choices you make are influencing your progress. So be optimistic if you want to see positive results.

Offline johnlink

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Re: Why do we LOVE the minus - and hate the plus?
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2013, 06:17:24 PM »
John, I recommend you get registered with Frauenfeld.  The quality of his resources are unparalleled in my opinion.  There are a few people in the forum over there that are currently undergoing significant changes.

Are you suggesting I buy one of the monthly plans? Is that what you did? If so, for how many months?

Quote
Using Equation 2 in http://forum.gettingstronger.org/index.php/topic,443.0.html I would estimate that you were between 20/130 and 20/150. What did you use for distance, including for driving?

That might be correct.  I estimate I was at most 20/150 because I though I could see the big E.  But when looking at the big E (20/200) it was extremely blurry and I would be lying if I said it was a good quality E I was seeing.  More like a triple or quadruple layered E.

So you were still using your glasses (or contacts) for driving, right?

Quote
My far point is at about 12 to 13 inches so I can work on the computer without my contacts but my monitor is about 22 inches away so I need to lean in. I often do that, but I'd rather be able to sit upright. If I'm wearing my contacts for close work I will now ALWAYS use the +1.75 reading glasses that will soon arrive from www.zennioptical.com. Those glasses, in combination with my contacts, will put my far point just in front of my monitor, giving me a little blur.

There is no right or wrong way.  Frauenfeld discusses the issue with contacts and plus lenses several times in his
forum (issues with distortion for example).  He has suggested that based on the years of experience in his clinic, multiple glasses at the same time are not the most ideal way to go.

I will look for the discussion in his forum.

Quote
My opinion is, if you can bring your monitor closer so as not to affect your ergonometrics, than that is the better way to go.  The one thing Frauenfeld has discussed, is that you don't need a lot of stimulus - I went over the top based on how he recommends people to go about it.  Todd also says the same, although less formally.  If I was starting again, I'd definately give Frauenfeld's suggestions a go.

Do you mean that you gave yourself too much stimulus, according to Frauenfeld?

Peter, thank you for your responses.

« Last Edit: March 03, 2013, 08:43:46 PM by johnlink »

Offline peterg

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Re: Why do we LOVE the minus - and hate the plus?
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2013, 08:37:52 PM »
If you have a goal - then I think that is "ideal vision".  Perhaps not "perfect" - but I think you can make yourself crazy if you demand "perfect vision".  But, for the record, Shadowfoot got to "perfect vision" with a plus.  Since he is very happy with his success - we don't hear from him anymore. That is the true nature of PERSONAL SUCCESS.

We don't hear from Shadowfoot because he hasn't had much to say recently.  And he's been traveling through latin america.

Otis, I think it is clear Shadowfoot admitted he does not have perfect vision when he stated it is very frustrating to see that others are outseeing him who have either perfect vison or perfectly corrected vision.   I believe that is an important thing for people to take note of.

Peter