Author Topic: Did Todd tell the truth? Did he get out of nearsightdness?  (Read 4114 times)

Offline OtisBrown

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Did Todd tell the truth? Did he get out of nearsightdness?
« on: March 20, 2013, 03:38:26 AM »
Subject: We are talking about a person objectively clearing his Snellen by heavy use of a plus for all close work.

Regarding:  Do  you think Todd was 1) Deceiving himself 2) Believed he got out of it - but is still myopic 3) Attempting to SELL a product - of some sort.  4) Attempting to convince you that you should wear a plus, to protect YOUR distant vision - for life.

I personally, limit myself to "Snellen clearing" to people who can still read the 20/50 to 20/60 line.  As a result of two "Blogs" that Todd maintained, it is clear that most people FEAR the wearing of the plus, when they can still read the 20/60 line.  From my accounting of true-prevention, I agree that clearing your Snellen requires a strong goal in your life, and will take about nine months of continuous wearing of a plus for all (but only) close work.  Since most people will "fade" after a month, I don't expect that most people will were the plus properly.  This is completely personal. If I were entering a four year (aeronautical) college, where I would be taught the statistics of the natural eye's proven behavior - I would want to be involved in plus-prevention.  This is because I know that they eye goes down by -1.5 diopters in four years. Thus if *I* was at -1.5 diopters (20/60 by self-measurement), I would be convinced that - if I DID NOTHING - I would be at 3 diopters (20/200) in that four years.  I don't know what YOU* might do - but I would be wearing the plus - and getting myself out of it.   I am curious about your thoughts on this issue.  Would you permit your child to be involved in this type of scientific study?  Yes or no?

Offline peterg

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Re: Did Todd tell the truth? Did he get out of nearsightdness?
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2013, 05:08:30 AM »
Subject: We are talking about a person objectively clearing his Snellen by heavy use of a plus for all close work.

Regarding:  Do  you think Todd was 1) Deceiving himself 2) Believed he got out of it - but is still myopic 3) Attempting to SELL a product - of some sort.  4) Attempting to convince you that you should wear a plus, to protect YOUR distant vision - for life.

I personally, limit myself to "Snellen clearing" to people who can still read the 20/50 to 20/60 line.  As a result of two "Blogs" that Todd maintained, it is clear that most people FEAR the wearing of the plus, when they can still read the 20/60 line.  From my accounting of true-prevention, I agree that clearing your Snellen requires a strong goal in your life, and will take about nine months of continuous wearing of a plus for all (but only) close work.  Since most people will "fade" after a month, I don't expect that most people will were the plus properly.  This is completely personal. If I were entering a four year (aeronautical) college, where I would be taught the statistics of the natural eye's proven behavior - I would want to be involved in plus-prevention.  This is because I know that they eye goes down by -1.5 diopters in four years. Thus if *I* was at -1.5 diopters (20/60 by self-measurement), I would be convinced that - if I DID NOTHING - I would be at 3 diopters (20/200) in that four years.  I don't know what YOU* might do - but I would be wearing the plus - and getting myself out of it.   I am curious about your thoughts on this issue.  Would you permit your child to be involved in this type of scientific study?  Yes or no?

From my personal experience of what distance vision improvement I have gained Otis, I believe Todd is still myopic in the traditional sense but has had a substantial distance vision improvement.  I believe he practices good visual habits now, in an effort to maintain his improvements, or to prevent himself from getting further myopic.  He has indicated in the past 20/20 in one eye, and 20/40 in the other, with those measurements being sometimes better, sometimes worse.

I think you are correct though, that it requires at least a mature child of at least 13, 14 to have a credible chance to apply prevention consistently.

Offline PhilippK

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Re: Did Todd tell the truth? Did he get out of nearsightdness?
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2013, 06:14:56 AM »
Unfortunately most adults will never understand the value of a plus for prolonged near work much less children.I think the best thing for young children would be to reduce their time indoors focusing on the near and spend most of their day outdoors actively using their eyes, but schools would never do this because they BELIEVE close work doesn't cause a refractive change to the negative.

Offline Todd Becker

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Re: Did Todd tell the truth? Did he get out of nearsightdness?
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2013, 10:29:18 AM »
Do  you think Todd was 1) Deceiving himself 2) Believed he got out of it - but is still myopic 3) Attempting to SELL a product - of some sort.  4) Attempting to convince you that you should wear a plus, to protect YOUR distant vision - for life.

The answer is: none of the above.  I am no longer myopic because I am 20/20 in my right eye and 20/30 to 20/40 in my left.  Since my stronger eye dominates, with both eyes uncovered I am 20/20.  I can drive without glasses day and night with perfect clarity.  I can sit in the back of an auditorium and see small print on scientific presentations.  However you cut it, I am not nearsighted.

I do not ordinarily wear plus lenses, even when reading. I occasionally use plus lenses to "tune up" my vision, if I feel it is fading. But that's maybe once or twice a month for an hour or so.  I certainly would not wear plus lenses when not reading or at the computer.  I don't need to.  I do make an effort to get up from my desk, walk around look at distant objects, and enjoy what I am looking at.  I treasure my good eyesight.

Not sure why there was any doubt - or if this question was just meant to provoke a reaction.  

Todd







« Last Edit: March 21, 2013, 10:34:42 AM by Todd Becker »

Offline OtisBrown

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Re: Did Todd tell the truth? Did he get out of nearsightdness?
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2013, 12:48:14 PM »
Dear Todd,
Subject: Thanks for your response.

Regarding:  Those individuals, mostly in medicine, who insist that prevention and recovery will always be impossible.

I have encountered too many people in medicine who insist that no one, "gets out of myopia", or that you are "deceiving yourself".  But of us are objective engineers - and know what we are doing.  I always want to be safe - and that means I personally verify  my own vision using a Snellen.  (I wish all of us would do that - I would feel safer if we did that at home.)

I am certain there are optometrists, in order to "convince themselves of THEIR authority", if you went to them, would work very hard to find an "imperfection" - and insist you are still, "myopic".  I just laugh at them - as you do.

For others, who are in "fear" of the plus - I regret that - and they can never be, "helped".  But that is neither your problem of my problem.  It is my belief and hope that there would be more engineers who would take this (prevention) problem seriously.

Thanks,

Otis


Do  you think Todd was 1) Deceiving himself 2) Believed he got out of it - but is still myopic 3) Attempting to SELL a product - of some sort.  4) Attempting to convince you that you should wear a plus, to protect YOUR distant vision - for life.

The answer is: none of the above.  I am no longer myopic because I am 20/20 in my right eye and 20/30 to 20/40 in my left.  Since my stronger eye dominates, with both eyes uncovered I am 20/20.  I can drive without glasses day and night with perfect clarity.  I can sit in the back of an auditorium and see small print on scientific presentations.  However you cut it, I am not nearsighted.

I do not ordinarily wear plus lenses, even when reading. I occasionally use plus lenses to "tune up" my vision, if I feel it is fading. But that's maybe once or twice a month for an hour or so.  I certainly would not wear plus lenses when not reading or at the computer.  I don't need to.  I do make an effort to get up from my desk, walk around look at distant objects, and enjoy what I am looking at.  I treasure my good eyesight.

Not sure why there was any doubt - or if this question was just meant to provoke a reaction.  

Todd









Offline johnlink

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Re: Did Todd tell the truth? Did he get out of nearsightdness?
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2013, 01:19:58 PM »
I am no longer myopic because I am 20/20 in my right eye and 20/30 to 20/40 in my left.  Since my stronger eye dominates, with both eyes uncovered I am 20/20.  I can drive without glasses day and night with perfect clarity.  I can sit in the back of an auditorium and see small print on scientific presentations.  However you cut it, I am not nearsighted.

I do not ordinarily wear plus lenses, even when reading. I occasionally use plus lenses to "tune up" my vision, if I feel it is fading. But that's maybe once or twice a month for an hour or so.  I certainly would not wear plus lenses when not reading or at the computer.  I don't need to.  I do make an effort to get up from my desk, walk around look at distant objects, and enjoy what I am looking at.  I treasure my good eyesight.

Todd, I'm surprised to learn that you don't regularly use plus lenses for extended periods of close work. What is your reasoning behind your action? Are you not concerned that extended periods of close work without plus lenses will make you myopic?

Offline peterg

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Re: Did Todd tell the truth? Did he get out of nearsightdness?
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2013, 02:08:02 PM »
The answer is: none of the above.  I am no longer myopic because I am 20/20 in my right eye and 20/30 to 20/40 in my left.  Since my stronger eye dominates, with both eyes uncovered I am 20/20.  I can drive without glasses day and night with perfect clarity.  I can sit in the back of an auditorium and see small print on scientific presentations.  However you cut it, I am not nearsighted.

Hi Todd, yes, I would say if you can drive night time with perfect clarity and see the scientific print at the back of an auditorium then you are certainly not near sighted.  I didn't realize exactly what your practical distance vision was, and my snellon readings do not often translate into the same practiical distance vision that your snellon readings do.  I must say congrats on your having that consistency.

Not sure why there was any doubt - or if this question was just meant to provoke a reaction.  

No attempt to provoke a reaction.   Testifying to your auditorium and night time vision is very beneficial, and I never realized that.

I extrapolated my differences between my snellon readings and my effortless practical vision (night time, auditorium viewing as examples of practical vision) onto you.  I had also asked Shadowfoot with 20/15 snellon measurements to try to explain his practical vision to me in terms of recognizing faces at a distance as well as how his vision compares with others.  Given his answers as well as his comments on frustration of being outseen, and  along with my own more pronounced but similar contradictions, I made that same assumption about you. It was in fact my expectation of what others were also going through. 

Once again I am very happy to learn about your current vision state.  It is fantastic.

Peter

Offline Todd Becker

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Re: Did Todd tell the truth? Did he get out of nearsightdness?
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2013, 05:29:43 PM »
Todd, I'm surprised to learn that you don't regularly use plus lenses for extended periods of close work. What is your reasoning behind your action? Are you not concerned that extended periods of close work without plus lenses will make you myopic?

John,

I look at it pragmatically. As long as my distance vision is sharp, why do anything more than the minimum necessary?  As soon as I sense any degree of blur, I'm back using plus lenses at the computer.  Or if I have a full day of writing without any breaks -- something that is rare and that I try to avoid -- I will use the plus lenses.  But I HATE wearing anything on my face -- that was one of my original motivations for getting rid of glasses, and part of the liberation I felt.  So I will only do what's necessary.

It's interesting that in my interview with Shadowfoot, he expressed the very same attitude.

But I grant that it's a personal thing, and I support anyone who prefers to be more diligent and consistent in their use of preventive plus lenses.

Once you get to 20/20, I'd be interested in how you feel about it.  

I would also point out that plus lenses and print pushing are just one element of good vision hygiene.  There are other behaviors besides wearing plus lenses that help sustain clear vision.  Among these are frequent distance gazing and near-to-far gazing, focusing exercises, and following a non-inflammatory, bioflavanoid-rich diet -- to maintain membrane fluidity and receptor acuity in the eye structure.

Todd

Offline OtisBrown

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Re: Did Todd tell the truth? Did he get out of nearsightdness?
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2013, 11:50:08 AM »
Hi Todd and Peter,
Subject:  What do optometrists suggest about getting a child to wear a plus - at the 20/40 stage?
Reference:  If you are going to help a child with this work - it will depend on the resolve of the child himself - to do what Todd did.
We all like to hear what a true expert has to say about a difficult subject.  So people will tell you that optometrists do not support wise plus prevention for a child.  This is false.  Here is an OD who supports the concept.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65vrKTJTyDY

But it is necessary to emphasize that is  must be started while the child has 20/30 to 20/50 vision.  I  know that most parents will refuse to understand the necessity of plus-prevention, but at least the concept is published.

Offline johnlink

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Re: Did Todd tell the truth? Did he get out of nearsightdness?
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2013, 12:09:14 PM »
Todd, I'm surprised to learn that you don't regularly use plus lenses for extended periods of close work. What is your reasoning behind your action? Are you not concerned that extended periods of close work without plus lenses will make you myopic?

John,

I look at it pragmatically. As long as my distance vision is sharp, why do anything more than the minimum necessary?  As soon as I sense any degree of blur, I'm back using plus lenses at the computer.  Or if I have a full day of writing without any breaks -- something that is rare and that I try to avoid -- I will use the plus lenses.  But I HATE wearing anything on my face -- that was one of my original motivations for getting rid of glasses, and part of the liberation I felt.  So I will only do what's necessary.

It's interesting that in my interview with Shadowfoot, he expressed the very same attitude.

But I grant that it's a personal thing, and I support anyone who prefers to be more diligent and consistent in their use of preventive plus lenses.

Once you get to 20/20, I'd be interested in how you feel about it.

I look forward to finding out! I wonder how soon that will be. For now I am very happy to wear my +1.75 glasses over my contacts while working at the computer, despite the annoyance of crossing the frame or needing to tilt my head down when I look at my keyboard, because I know that by doing so I am improving my vision. Perhaps I'll spend $99 and get Cohen's Fashion Optical to make lenses for the aviator frames I bought a few years ago with +1.25 lenses that are useless to me (There's no activity I do with a fixed focal length of 31.5 inches).

Do you think your current practice would be appropriate for a child, adolescent, or young adult? If so, doesn't that contradict the idea of preventing myopia with plus lenses?

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I would also point out that plus lenses and print pushing are just one element of good vision hygiene.  There are other behaviors besides wearing plus lenses that help sustain clear vision.  Among these are frequent distance gazing and near-to-far gazing, focusing exercises, and following a non-inflammatory, bioflavanoid-rich diet -- to maintain membrane fluidity and receptor acuity in the eye structure.

I've made riding my bike an important part of my program by frequently directing my gaze anywhere from a mile (across to New Jersey) to five miles (to the George Washington Bridge starting at 70th Street) as I ride along the Manhattan side along the Hudson River. I also spend some time just gazing across the river when I get off my bike.

Would you say more about a non-inflammatory, bioflavanoid-rich diet, or direct me to where you've already written about it?

Offline Todd Becker

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Re: Did Todd tell the truth? Did he get out of nearsightdness?
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2013, 02:40:38 PM »
Do you think your current practice would be appropriate for a child, adolescent, or young adult? If so, doesn't that contradict the idea of preventing myopia with plus lenses?

The developing eyes of the young tend to be more dynamic and mutable than my old eyes.  Taking into account genetic and environmental congtributions -- especially the amount of time spent by a young person with close work, I would certain do all I could to prevent myopia -- using all tools at my disposal, with plus lenses, print pushing, minimizing close work, encouraging exercise and good diet.

My son, who had an avid interest in sports and has worked as a baseball umpire, noticed that his distance vision started to get worse when he was about 18 years old.  I put him onto plus lenses at that time, and he is religious about wearing plus lenses whenever he spends a lot of time at the computer. He tells me it has helped a lot.  And it's his choice.

Should I have insisted on plus lenses when he was younger? When he was younger, his distance vision was perfect, even though he enjoyed video games and read a lot.  My view is:  why force plus lenses or print pushing until there is some evidence that it is needed?  Certainly, if he had started to show signs of myopia when he was younger, I would have stepped in.  But there are downsides to being too prevention oriented.  Younger kids are less disciplined, and overbearing parents invite resistance and a souring of the parent-child relationship.  Fortunately, in my case, my son came to this decision on his own.

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I've made riding my bike an important part of my program by frequently directing my gaze anywhere from a mile (across to New Jersey) to five miles (to the George Washington Bridge starting at 70th Street) as I ride along the Manhattan side along the Hudson River. I also spend some time just gazing across the river when I get off my bike.

That's great, John!  This is something that is not a chore for you, it's a joy.  And that's important.

Quote
Would you say more about a non-inflammatory, bioflavanoid-rich diet, or direct me to where you've already written about it?

It would take more than a short comment to point you to all the evidence for my views on this -- and I'm still researching it, so I can't give you something as definitive as you might like.  So please don't consider this a definitive argument, but rather the sketch of an argument:

Unsaturated fatty acids, especially DHA, are important for eye health, due to the role they play in membrane fluidity.  Antioxidants can prevent damage and loss of membrane fluidity:

http://www.raysahelian.com/myopia.html

But much better than antioxidants (which are consumed stoichiometrically), are your own endogenous antioxidant enzymes, e.g. superoxide dismutase and glutathione peroxidase.  And the best way to stimulate these is by consuming bioflavanoid rich vegetables, herbs and spices:

http://gettingstronger.org/2011/03/the-case-against-antioxidants/

These vegetables and herbs also contain phytonutrients that improve pigmentation in your rods and cones.

It's also important to minimize basal insulin through diet and exercise.  Volek and Phinney have many citations in their book on ketogenic, low insulin diets indicating that insulinogenic diets are inflammatory and generated reactive oxygen species that oxidize and cross-link the unsaturated fatty acids in lipid bilayer membranes.  The fluidity of lipid membranes is important in receptor function (e.g. glucose transport receptors), brain function and eye growoth and flexibility.

http://www.amazon.com/Art-Science-Low-Carbohydrate-Living/dp/0983490708
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipid_peroxidation
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15111505

Hope that helps,

Todd