Author Topic: Update  (Read 6138 times)

Offline Steven

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Update
« on: August 01, 2013, 11:55:54 AM »
Hi Steven -

Let me understand you correctly:

1) You read your Snellen at 20/40 - with no minus lens.  Is that correct?  I do not understand your remark (so -2.0 D)  What does that mean?

2) I assume you wear a +4 for several hours, and read 20/30 - after doing that.  Is that correct.  (The problem of wearing a +4.0 is that, you would be reading a 10 inches from your face.  Is that correct?  I would see no reason to get a stronger plus that +4.0

3) If you read 20/30, I would go down an pass the STATE DMV test (which requires 20/40).

4) The drug stores only sell up to about +3.5 diopters. If you want a +6, you would have to order from Zennioptical.

5) You had a -4 diopter prescription (since Nov 2012) is that correct.  Now your read the 20/40 to 20/30 line - naked eye?   Is that correct.

6)  I know you will do what you judge is right for you.  Personally - you are very good to be reading the 20/40 line.  You can do most things with no lens on your face.

7) In *my* opinion, you can not "speed up" recovery. It is a very slow process.  The +3.0 for all close work should be comfortable for you.  It is long-term wearing that has the effect.  I would just give wearing the plus for all close work another three to six months, and then plan to  read the 20/30 to 20/20 line - on  a brightly lit Snellen.  You have to correct idea  - but there is not easy, nor fast way.  Only *YOU* personally measure and judge your results.  Bestt,

1. Correct. Having 20/40 means my eye is around -2. So i would need -2 to read 20/20.

2. I don't use the +4 for close reading. For close reading i can continue to use a +2. I use the +4 when doing nothing at all, because the +2 is no longer lowering my myopia as fast as it did when i had -4.

3. I can read the 20/30 after several hours of using a +4 since a +2 no longer stimulates my eye enough when looking far away. I basically use the +2 when rollerskating !

4. Indeed 3.5, only a couple of times i saw a +4 in hypermarkets (the cheap ones)

5. Correct. Correct both. 20/30 means i need a -1.5 to read the 20/20.

6. I do most things without any glasses. I even use +2 when roller skating as i said above.
Of course i still lack the ability to see small text far away.

7. I found that by simply using a very strong plus like +4 +5 or +6 or more and looking at distance helps the eye much more than push printing.

The reason behind this is simple.
a) If you want your eyes to become myopic you put a pair of very strong minus glasses and try to focus on a book that is close to your eyes.

b) If you want your eyes to become hyperopic you put a pair of very strong plus glasses and try to focus on objects far away from your eyes.

The maximum effect is thus achieved.
Best Regards
« Last Edit: August 01, 2013, 11:57:34 AM by Steven »

Offline OtisBrown

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Re: Update
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2013, 03:58:53 PM »
Hi Steven -

I am IMPRESSED by what you have done here.  I like the fact that you CHECK YOUR SNELLEN YOURSELF - using a -1.5 and -2.0 to verify that you check the 20/20 line with those lenses.   I have simply have met few people who do that kind of checking.  I think it is very important that a wise person do that type of checking.  (As always - put a bright light on that Snellen - a poorly lit Snellen gives false values.

I always emphasize the need to confirm naked eye 20/40.  Why?  Because that will pass the driving test.  I use that as my standard (assuming I get confirmation at the DMV).

I want you to be self-confirmed successful.  When you confirm 20/40 - you are indeed successful.

PERSONAL OPINION:  You are doing very aggressive work - as you describe it.  I appreciate you leadership.  It is my opinion that moderate work with a +3.5, but continued over six to nine months - will get that +1.5 diopter change to get you to naked-eye 20/20.  Again, in my opinion, I don't think you can "speed this up" - so I think in terms of steady effort.  But you are the LEADER here.  I also like the idea of wearing a +1.0 around the house.  (Your distant vision will be slightly blurry - but that does not matter.  You can take them off, or look over the "tops" for clear distant vision.)

It is clear that NO OPTOMETRIST CAN PRESCRIBE THIS. This is indeed totally personal.  By all means, post your thoughts and wisdom, and you continue this personal quest to change your refractive state by +1.0 to +1.5 diopters.

More later,

Otis


Hi Steven -

Let me understand you correctly:

1) You read your Snellen at 20/40 - with no minus lens.  Is that correct?  I do not understand your remark (so -2.0 D)  What does that mean?

2) I assume you wear a +4 for several hours, and read 20/30 - after doing that.  Is that correct.  (The problem of wearing a +4.0 is that, you would be reading a 10 inches from your face.  Is that correct?  I would see no reason to get a stronger plus that +4.0

3) If you read 20/30, I would go down an pass the STATE DMV test (which requires 20/40).

4) The drug stores only sell up to about +3.5 diopters. If you want a +6, you would have to order from Zennioptical.

5) You had a -4 diopter prescription (since Nov 2012) is that correct.  Now your read the 20/40 to 20/30 line - naked eye?   Is that correct.

6)  I know you will do what you judge is right for you.  Personally - you are very good to be reading the 20/40 line.  You can do most things with no lens on your face.

7) In *my* opinion, you can not "speed up" recovery. It is a very slow process.  The +3.0 for all close work should be comfortable for you.  It is long-term wearing that has the effect.  I would just give wearing the plus for all close work another three to six months, and then plan to  read the 20/30 to 20/20 line - on  a brightly lit Snellen.  You have to correct idea  - but there is not easy, nor fast way.  Only *YOU* personally measure and judge your results.  Bestt,

1. Correct. Having 20/40 means my eye is around -2. So i would need -2 to read 20/20.

2. I don't use the +4 for close reading. For close reading i can continue to use a +2. I use the +4 when doing nothing at all, because the +2 is no longer lowering my myopia as fast as it did when i had -4.

3. I can read the 20/30 after several hours of using a +4 since a +2 no longer stimulates my eye enough when looking far away. I basically use the +2 when rollerskating !

4. Indeed 3.5, only a couple of times i saw a +4 in hypermarkets (the cheap ones)

5. Correct. Correct both. 20/30 means i need a -1.5 to read the 20/20.

6. I do most things without any glasses. I even use +2 when roller skating as i said above.
Of course i still lack the ability to see small text far away.

7. I found that by simply using a very strong plus like +4 +5 or +6 or more and looking at distance helps the eye much more than push printing.

The reason behind this is simple.
a) If you want your eyes to become myopic you put a pair of very strong minus glasses and try to focus on a book that is close to your eyes.

b) If you want your eyes to become hyperopic you put a pair of very strong plus glasses and try to focus on objects far away from your eyes.

The maximum effect is thus achieved.
Best Regards

Offline Steven

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Re: Update
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2013, 02:48:40 AM »
Very aggressive work indeed.

I just remembered when the doctor gave me when i was a child from -1.75 both eyes to -3 both eyes.

I was dizzy for 2 weeks. And that is not just very aggressive but extremely dangerous and could lead to retinal detachment.

Parents that try to help children without understanding how things work can destroy a child vision.  And they do in 99.99% of cases.

The doctor is even more sick. He knows what he learns in school and enters this industry that makes people handicapped just to sell more glasses.

I will probably get a +3.5 this week if i don't find a +4.

Offline OtisBrown

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Re: Update
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2013, 04:01:54 AM »
Hi Steven -

There is one optometrist who (after he retired), explained to me that the "general public" was extremely hostile to ANY optometrist who even suggested that a person go though a "training" process - where the person would be responsible for measuring and "controlling"  his distant vision - himself.

You have accomplished an amazing success.  The process of learning how to measure your refractive state *yourself* is part of that "independence" action.  That is a declaration of personal responsibility.

Tragically, the optometrist is "locked" in a truly dangerous process, of always over-prescribing a strong minus lens.  There is virtually nothing that *I* can do about it.

Today, about 90 percent of Korean students are nearsighted.  The ONLY response from our optometrists is this, "...sorry about that, but any and all prevention is impossible, and you are crazy to even suggest that you can get out of -1.0 diopters and 20/40."

There are people who will tell me that you "can't get out of" -1.0 diopters.  Because that would be "practicing medicine".  I just do not agree.  Getting your natural eyes to change by +1.0 diopter is possible, and is based on the fact that the natural eye will change  very slowly if you use a plus as you are now doing it.  Here is the science behind this very slow response to a plus lens.

http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~wildsoet/images/pos_lens_induce_hyperopia.swf

This is a scientific visualization about how all natural eyes "control" their long-term refractive STATE.  This has been proven with young primate eyes.  But the issue is that no one can "prescribe" the type of long-term motivation is takes, to just get to 20/40, and -1.0 diopter on your own Snellen.  I consider successful prevention to be "science based" and not "medical based" - and that is truly the scientific issue. 

As always - be prepared - that "last diopter" takes a long time.  But you are very lucky to be passing the required DMV test.  Now is it just a matter of long-term steady persistence.

Thanks!

Otis



Very aggressive work indeed.

I just remembered when the doctor gave me when i was a child from -1.75 both eyes to -3 both eyes.

I was dizzy for 2 weeks. And that is not just very aggressive but extremely dangerous and could lead to retinal detachment.

Parents that try to help children without understanding how things work can destroy a child vision.  And they do in 99.99% of cases.

The doctor is even more sick. He knows what he learns in school and enters this industry that makes people handicapped just to sell more glasses.

I will probably get a +3.5 this week if i don't find a +4.

Offline mailliam

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Re: Update
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2013, 05:49:36 AM »
Very aggressive work indeed.

I just remembered when the doctor gave me when i was a child from -1.75 both eyes to -3 both eyes.

I was dizzy for 2 weeks. And that is not just very aggressive but extremely dangerous and could lead to retinal detachment.

Parents that try to help children without understanding how things work can destroy a child vision.  And they do in 99.99% of cases.

The doctor is even more sick. He knows what he learns in school and enters this industry that makes people handicapped just to sell more glasses.

I will probably get a +3.5 this week if i don't find a +4.

Do you get any symptoms of dizziness when you wear your strong plus lenses?

I'm also curious about your daily routine regarding vision improvement. You say you can see the 20/30 after several hours of using the +4, are you just sitting in the park or walking around for those few hours?

Thanks for all your posts - they have been useful.

Liam

Offline Steven

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Re: Update
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2013, 12:51:06 PM »
Very aggressive work indeed.

I just remembered when the doctor gave me when i was a child from -1.75 both eyes to -3 both eyes.

I was dizzy for 2 weeks. And that is not just very aggressive but extremely dangerous and could lead to retinal detachment.

Parents that try to help children without understanding how things work can destroy a child vision.  And they do in 99.99% of cases.

The doctor is even more sick. He knows what he learns in school and enters this industry that makes people handicapped just to sell more glasses.

I will probably get a +3.5 this week if i don't find a +4.

Do you get any symptoms of dizziness when you wear your strong plus lenses?

I'm also curious about your daily routine regarding vision improvement. You say you can see the 20/30 after several hours of using the +4, are you just sitting in the park or walking around for those few hours?

Thanks for all your posts - they have been useful.

Liam

If you don't want to waste time like i did, start with a strong plus lens. If i had to start all over again to see how fast i can change the shape of the eye i would buy the strongest plus (+6 or more) and use it 24/7.

In my experience a stronger plus basically forces the eye to become shorter much faster. Yes the eye is changing slowly, but remember when i went from -1.75 to -3 the dizziness went away after maximum 2 weeks. So they eye was forced to do it.

Of course you get some kind of dizziness when using +6 glasses because the brain starts to receive information from the visual field that it never had before. But that is a good thing. It means the eyes are forced to change.

Shortening the eye is safe. Elongating the eye is very dangerous. So even if you feel a little dizzy there is nothing wrong except for the fact that your eyes are changing their shape rapidly.

Daily Routine
You can sit in the house and listen to TV/Radio/Internet Show, you can walk in the park or outside your home, you can sit on a bench outside your home or on a bench in the park.

You can do what a blind person can do and much more.

Fastest way. (ideally)
1. Never put back again the minus lens, except for a half prescription in urgent cases for short periods of time. Never use the minus for close activity (the image must always be blurry)
2. Use soft plus glasses to read book (the text must be blurry)
3. Use the strongest plus glasses you can buy and look at far away objects as much as you can.

The stronger the plus and the longer you use it the faster the recovery.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2013, 12:58:06 PM by Steven »

Offline Hillyman

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Re: Update
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2013, 05:14:08 PM »

The stronger the plus and the longer you use it the faster the recovery.

Steven

I am now at -5.5. If I take off my glasses, I am in quite a severe blur.  Would this be enough to encourage my eyes to recover, or should I still add additional plus lenses?

Offline Steven

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Re: Update
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2013, 01:44:09 AM »

The stronger the plus and the longer you use it the faster the recovery.

Steven

I am now at -5.5. If I take off my glasses, I am in quite a severe blur.  Would this be enough to encourage my eyes to recover, or should I still add additional plus lenses?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retinal_detachment

"Retinal detachment is more common in people with severe myopia (above 5–6 diopters), in whom the retina is more thinly stretched. In such patients, lifetime risk rises to 1 in 20. About two-thirds of cases of retinal detachment occur in myopics. Myopic retinal detachment patients tend to be younger than non-myopic ones."

Now, if you want to avoid going blind, because you will eventually if you continue like this, you have to never again use the -5.5 glasses. NEVER.

Put them down and forget about them.

Indeed at -5.5 everything is really blurry.

It would be enough for your eyes to recover but it would help tremendously to use some strong plus glasses in order to cut a few diopters fast, since you can't wait years to pass to be able to use your eyes properly.

Get a strong plus lens and find a place where you can stay : In the bed, on a couch, on a bench in the park or outside your home.

It's easier to start at home.

Once you realize the good they are doing to your eyes you start not caring at all what other people think of you when you use them on the street. (yes many people feel somehow embarrassed to use them in public - and that works only against them)

You should find an online shop from where you can buy without prescription a cheap undercorection pair of glasses like -2.

How old are you and when do you need to see clear during the day ?

So first buy a strong plus, put them on and wait a couple of hours. Check your eyes before and after with a snallen chart. The vision will improve immediately.

Offline Hillyman

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Re: Update
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2013, 06:53:17 PM »
Responding to Replies #7 (Steven) and #8 (Tom)

I am 60 this month and have been wearing minus lenses since I was about 10. Now I am at -5.5, with some astigmatism. Since I came across this forum about a month ago, I have been using a spare pair of glasses with a weaker prescription for distance, and also a +1.25 lenses in the bifocal part. I also have the Superfocus glasses (see their website) which allows variable focus, so this pair is actually very good for allowing degrees of blur. I have a 10-minute walk to and from the train station every workday, and I now do it with my glasses off.

I have practiced reading without my glasses and even tried a +2 pair of reading glasses which I had gotten because I wore contact lenses occasionally a few years back. So I had the blur of a -7.5 myope.  I practiced reading and looking around for about 15-20 minutes.

Working the blur is interesting. I suspect that even in this past month, I have had a little improvement in my myopia, judging by how clear my spare pair of glasses seems to be.  (The Snellen chart I ordered has not arrived yet.)

Back in the day when my nearsightedness was continually getting worse, I remember that feeling of dismay when the first sense of blur came a few weeks after getting a new prescription. But now I welcome the blur! I find also that in addition to just working with the blur, one has to have a new sense of being actively engaged in the seeing, that the act of seeing is not a passive activity of just waiting for the light to come into the eyes. A little hard to describe.

Tom: You were at -11...so where are you now? I have a colleague who is at -12, and he seems very interested in reducing his myopia.  I want to be able to encourage him by citing your example.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2013, 03:57:15 PM by Hillyman »

Offline Steven

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Re: Update
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2013, 12:55:14 AM »
Just print the char on an A4 paper and put it 6 meters away. Make sure strong light is on it.

http://www.iovs.org/content/51/12/6262.full.pdf+html

For you and your friend with -12.

It doesn't matter if the brain gets used or not. A stronger plus, no matter if the brain gets used or not is influencing the eye not the brain.

The eye will get used only when the power of rejection is stronger then the power of the lens. Imagine you need to force you eye to become shorter but the +2 is simply not going to give you 20/20 anytime soon.

Try the strong plus you have for a couple of hours and report your advancements.

Offline OtisBrown

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Re: Update
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2013, 07:32:29 AM »
Subject:  If you are serious about you vision.

Here is the correct Snellen chart.  Put a bright light on it - for consistent measurements.

http://www.i-see.org/block_letter_eye_chart.pdf

I like to mark the lines in big letters 60, 40, 20, so I can read them easily at 20 feet.  (Helps me keep track of my progress.)  For accuracy, the 20/40 line letters must be 3/4 inch high.

I also suggest this, as an ENGINEER, if I  what something done RIGHT - then I MUST do it myself.  I believe this is Steven's approach also.  Until you check yourself - you don't believe your own results.

Enjoy,

Offline FonkStreet

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Re: Update
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2013, 01:15:47 PM »
Very interesting thread.

A lot a people like Alex Frauenfeld advise to work at "the edge of blur" in order that the eye may respond.

But why the eye could respond only with a small defocus? That is not scientifically proven.

The scientific studies show that the eye can respond to strong defocus.

That's why I'm agree with you Steven.

It's true that is difficult to deal with strong myopic defocus all day long but I think, that is the best way.

Few questions for you Steven:

1\ Before you start training, what was your visual acuity?

2\ Before you start training,  what was the power of the minus lenses you are using to see the 20/20 line?

3\ Do you have trial lenses? You said you would need -2 to read 20/20 with 20/40 naked eye. But I think it's too powerful. -0.5 to -1 is enough.

Offline Hillyman

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Re: Update
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2013, 04:08:01 PM »
Tom:

Thanks for this reply and the recap of some of the posts that have been made recently.

I am now making a practice of reading my iPad/iPhone without my glasses at a blur distance.  I am able to read through what might be described as a double vision blur: the letters come in clear and blurred at the same time, one superimposed on the other.

One interesting sense of a mental resistance: since I have been at -5.5 all my adult life, being able to see my surroundings clearer without my glasses is unusual and slightly unnerving. My initial reaction: Why is everything clearer?
What is "wrong"? I tell myself with a chuckle: "You'd better get used to this, buddy."


Offline johnlink

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Re: Update
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2013, 03:45:42 PM »

1. Correct. Having 20/40 means my eye is around -2. So i would need -2 to read 20/20.

My understanding is that for most people, 20/40 corresponds to -1, not to -2 (furthermore, 20/25 corresponds to -0.25, 20/30 corresponds to -0.50, and 20/35 corresponds to -0.75). Have you verified that need a -2 to read 20/20?

Offline Steven

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Re: Update
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2013, 12:08:45 AM »
Very interesting thread.

A lot a people like Alex Frauenfeld advise to work at "the edge of blur" in order that the eye may respond.

But why the eye could respond only with a small defocus? That is not scientifically proven.

The scientific studies show that the eye can respond to strong defocus.

That's why I'm agree with you Steven.

It's true that is difficult to deal with strong myopic defocus all day long but I think, that is the best way.

Few questions for you Steven:

1\ Before you start training, what was your visual acuity?

2\ Before you start training,  what was the power of the minus lenses you are using to see the 20/20 line?

3\ Do you have trial lenses? You said you would need -2 to read 20/20 with 20/40 naked eye. But I think it's too powerful. -0.5 to -1 is enough.

Of course stronger plus gives better results the same way stronger minus (over-prescription) elongates the eye much faster.

1. -4 both eyes
2. -4
3. Don't have trial lenses. 20/40 is -2 | 20/30 is -1.5.
I can't see 20/20 with -1.25 lens.