Author Topic: wearing plus lenses even for distance viewing  (Read 4514 times)

Offline caimanjosh

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wearing plus lenses even for distance viewing
« on: January 15, 2014, 12:58:13 PM »
Tom Lu's great thread with various research studies has given me some good food for thought.  In particular, this post (http://forum.gettingstronger.org/index.php/topic,538.msg5339.html#msg5339) is making me wonder something.  Perhaps those with low myopia (say, -1 uncorrected) might benefit from wearing plus lenses even while out and about?  In the study, they subjected the participants to 3 diopters of undercorrection while watching TV from about 20 feet away, and their axial optical length decreased.  Perhaps this indicates that a -1 myope could benefit from wearing +2 lenses for distance viewing? 

Has anyone tried this sort of thing?  How did it go? 

Offline FonkStreet

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Re: wearing plus lenses even for distance viewing
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2014, 03:04:18 PM »
I want to do this experiment of myself since several months ago but it's take a lot of free time because with a strong myopic defocus, you can't working.

Search the Steven's posts on this forum. Sometimes, he wear strong plus lenses.

I know that several people have reduced their myopia just in removing completely their glasses. That is similar.

Offline NickGrouwen

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Re: wearing plus lenses even for distance viewing
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2014, 12:42:35 AM »
I remember some posts from a couple of months ago from a forum member named Steven:
http://forum.gettingstronger.org/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=16481

A selection of posts:
Hi Otis.

My current prescription is -3 left eye -3.75 right eye (which i feel is over prescription now).
I no longer have -4 in both eyes.

Right now i am reading this forum and the book.

You said i should go for a -2 to start with for long distance. I was thinking more of a -1.5.
I will order the next week at my local glass technician a pair of -1.5 for both eyes, since i am in Europe and the lenses i get from him are good quality from a Japanese firm.

Yes it will cost me more then the site you suggested but i can try everything here.

So:
1. I should use the -1.5 or -2 only for long distance and i must try to focus on things that are just outside my visual range ( a little blurry ). Correct ?

2. When using "push print" i use no glasses and when the image becomes too clear and my arm too short for the book i should use a +1, then +1.5, +2, +2.5 etc. as my vision improves.

3. Will using a very strong plus all day, no matter the activity, reverse my myopia much faster or will the eye just ignore the effort and stay the same ?

4. Will using a -1.5 or -2 while looking in the distance make my eyes more myopic or will my vision improve as long as i focus on semi-blurry spots ?

Thank you.

My feeling is that under corrective lenses do not improve myopia by their own. Under corrective lenses only help myopia stop progressing if used for long distance only and for limited amounts of time. But if under corrective lenses are used for close work then myopia will increase (less then it does with full prescription but more then without glasses.)

After using +2.5 around the house, even if everything is blurry my eyes are significantly improved. This means the plus lens even if everything is blurry is reshaping the eye.

Using a very strong plus (+5 or more) for extended periods of time would cure myopia. Even if the eye is forced to do incredible "weightlifting" it has no escape.

I found out that using a strong plus increases my visual acuity much more then print pushing or seeing at the edge of blur.

I think that is why Otis says ( ideally ) to avoid the minus lens.

If i use the -1.5 only for outdoor activity (no driving), and i use the +2.5 or more inside home for extended periods of time, my eyes should go in time to -1.5. (20/20)

Ideally (for fastest curing) would be to wear strong + all the time outdoor & indoor and no minus lens at all.

If you don't want to waste time like i did, start with a strong plus lens. If i had to start all over again to see how fast i can change the shape of the eye i would buy the strongest plus (+6 or more) and use it 24/7.

In my experience a stronger plus basically forces the eye to become shorter much faster. Yes the eye is changing slowly, but remember when i went from -1.75 to -3 the dizziness went away after maximum 2 weeks. So they eye was forced to do it.

Of course you get some kind of dizziness when using +6 glasses because the brain starts to receive information from the visual field that it never had before. But that is a good thing. It means the eyes are forced to change.

Shortening the eye is safe. Elongating the eye is very dangerous. So even if you feel a little dizzy there is nothing wrong except for the fact that your eyes are changing their shape rapidly.

Daily Routine
You can sit in the house and listen to TV/Radio/Internet Show, you can walk in the park or outside your home, you can sit on a bench outside your home or on a bench in the park.

You can do what a blind person can do and much more.

Fastest way. (ideally)
1. Never put back again the minus lens, except for a half prescription in urgent cases for short periods of time. Never use the minus for close activity (the image must always be blurry)
2. Use soft plus glasses to read book (the text must be blurry)
3. Use the strongest plus glasses you can buy and look at far away objects as much as you can.

The stronger the plus and the longer you use it the faster the recovery.

I wonder if it's safe though...just +3D alone gave me a bit of a headache and uncomfortable sensation in my eyes, but obviously everyone is different. I might try it again soon though

I'm going to take the time to read through all his posts later today, very interesting stuff
« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 12:54:19 AM by NickGrouwen »

Offline caimanjosh

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Re: wearing plus lenses even for distance viewing
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2014, 11:21:00 AM »
Search the Steven's posts on this forum. Sometimes, he wear strong plus lenses.
Now I recall that a few months ago I did see Steven's posts about always wearing a strong plus lens.  At the time I was dismissive (I seem to recall that Todd disagreed with this idea as well).  Now, in lieu of several of those studies (admittedly some of them were on baby chickens), the idea seems much more plausible.  I think this spring (once we start getting some decent sunlight...not trying this in this dismal winter light), I may try spending more time wearing weak/moderate plus lenses while out and about. 

I know that several people have reduced their myopia just in removing completely their glasses. That is similar.
Yes indeed...in fact, I'm one of those people.  :)  I started print pushing at about the same time that I quit wearing my glasses...so I'm not sure which factor helped, or if it was both.  I kind of suspect it was both, though. 

Offline larrykkl

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Re: wearing plus lenses even for distance viewing
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2014, 04:27:50 AM »
I find that there are always questions on the "correct way" to do print pushing, ie the degree of blurness. If wearing plus lenses is enough to create a myopic defocus that leads to axial shortening, then would the degree of bluriness matter? Can myopics just go "cold turkey" and do without minus lenses (when possible..) to achieve this goal? This would be the same as wearing plus lenses most of the time, for mild myopics. Is there evidence to say that the eye "gives up" if it is too blur? I had the impression if you put a plus lens over an eye, irregardless of whether the eye is focusing at the edge of the blur, that it would shorten over time?

Offline caimanjosh

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Re: wearing plus lenses even for distance viewing
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2014, 12:02:58 PM »
Is there evidence to say that the eye "gives up" if it is too blur? I had the impression if you put a plus lens over an eye, irregardless of whether the eye is focusing at the edge of the blur, that it would shorten over time?
Several of the studies that Tom Lu had found would seem to provide evidence that plus lenses do shorten the axial length of the eye, at least in animals or, in the case of one study, in the short-term in humans.  That's what I think I'll try this once we're getting some good sunlight this spring. 

Offline OtisBrown

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Re: wearing plus lenses even for distance viewing
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2014, 01:28:05 PM »
Hi Caimanjosh,

Subject: The only person who "proves success" - is the person who wears the plus for six months.

Item:  HOW you wear the plus - is totally up to you.  Success is best measured by doing it yourself. No OD that I know of cares or is interested.

Item:  I personally limit my statement to a starting value of about 20/40 to20/70 - on your Snellen.  I doubt that most people have any interest in successful prevention - if it requires wearing a plus lens for six months.

Caiman> Now I recall that a few months ago I did see Steven's posts about always wearing a strong plus lens.  At the time I was dismissive (I seem to recall that Todd disagreed with this idea as well).

Otis> We are all free to make our choice in this matter.  For me, the "core method", is to take a plus (say +2.5 diopters (assuming you are 20/40), and push away, until I can not read any letters.  Then I "pull in" until I can "just read" the letters.   (I am doing this now.)  I then reach a point where the letters become clear enough to read - comfortably.  I also note the distance in inches that I do this reading.

Otis> I think the additional techniques that Steven developed for himself - are excellent - and will help him.  He is successful now - because he personally exceeds the legal visual acuity requirement on his own Snellen.

Otis> The rest of us are just going to talk about Steven, and wonder if or why he was successful.

Best,



Is there evidence to say that the eye "gives up" if it is too blur? I had the impression if you put a plus lens over an eye, irregardless of whether the eye is focusing at the edge of the blur, that it would shorten over time?
Several of the studies that Tom Lu had found would seem to provide evidence that plus lenses do shorten the axial length of the eye, at least in animals or, in the case of one study, in the short-term in humans.  That's what I think I'll try this once we're getting some good sunlight this spring.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 05:23:41 PM by OtisBrown »

Offline Steven

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Re: wearing plus lenses even for distance viewing
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2014, 04:16:54 PM »
1. Of course looking far with more positive prescription substantially reduces negative ciliary tension which also leads to shortening of the eyeball.

2. Otis is very right you can talk about it an eternity or just do it.

3. From -4 to -2.5 i used a +2.5 for both far away activities and book reading. From -2.5 to -1.5 (i can read 20/30 now) i used and still use a +4 for both far and book reading).

But as i said in another topic (read it please) : http://forum.gettingstronger.org/index.php/topic,902.0.html
You must also make a habit from doing saccadic movements while you are awake (especially when you use plus glasses) which leads to less focusing. Less focusing = more defocus = less ciliary tension = faster recovery.

Basically all eyes from 20/20 to 20/8 have good saccadic movements and these movements act as constant defocus (that is keeping the eye in good shape) unless of course you start to stare all day long at the computer or other close objects.

5. If over correcting with minus lenses increases your myopia faster the same can be said about over correcting with a plus lens. It reduces your myopia faster.

Offline OtisBrown

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Re: wearing plus lenses even for distance viewing
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2014, 08:08:46 PM »
Hi Tom and Steven,

I am always impressed by people who "take the bull by the horns", wear the plus, as a long-term effort, and succeed in passing the required 20/40 line, at home, and under their complete control.

The only person who knows, objectively, that he is successful, is the person who does it.

For the person who has managed to recover from -4 diopters, and passes the required 20/40 line, I can only suggest the continued use of the plus - as Steven is doing it.  I also suggest that, there is a "delay" for a person who was at -4 diopters, to finally clear that last diopter to 20/20.  But getting rid of the minus is of critical importance for Steven.

Congratulations on your obvious success.

Offline Steven

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Re: wearing plus lenses even for distance viewing
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2014, 02:07:07 AM »
Steven, do keep posting your experience here. The more data we have the better.

Just a few notes.

Quote
You must also make a habit from doing saccadic movements while you are awake (especially when you use plus glasses) which leads to less focusing.

In the literature, saccade refers to the reflexive (automatic) micromovements your eyes perform. For the most part, you can't really control it - your eyes perform 30-80 movements per second. Also, we have both saccades and fixation for good reasons - saccades allow faster eye movement without having to move our head, so is evolutionary advantageous. While without fixation, fine focus would be impossible. They work together in tandem.

If I understand well, you are probably experiencing significant staring strain and suspect that fixation is the cause of that. The reason why there is that much strain is precisely the way you use your eyes - you're looking too far, with lens too strong. If you only use +4 at home and focus only reasonably far, you might notice that fixation is not the culprit - staring is.

Obviously, that doesn't mean that reading by staring is good, but you can learn to read (or print-push) without staring, the saccades would be happening without you noticing. Voluntarily moving your eyes is exhausting over time too. It's not a coincidence if the eyes evolve to become equip with both fixation and saccades - it optimizes energy efficiency.

1. Saccadic movements are experienced by the eyes in terms of blur ( defocus ) but hidden by the brain using Saccadic masking. ( so you are not bothered by the blur, but the eye definitely changes in some way )

2.  Saccadic movements are like breathing. It is controlled by the subconscious ( when you sleep you don't have to remember to breath ) but of course you can consciously control breathing. So you can consciously control Saccadic movements.

Did you read the link above ?

3. Saccadic movements stop when you consciously start staring at things. When you play a game on a PC you are staring because you are very involved in the action there. You are fixed in state of alertness that overwrites the naturally balanced movements of the eye.

As time goes on staring becomes a habit and the subconscious obeys the new habit. If you consciously start to breath strangely, after a couple of weeks you will also do that in your sleep. So the subconscious changes depending on the feedback it receives.

4. I don't experience any strain. Strain i would have experienced if i used the plus glasses and started staring. You notice all Saccadic movements if you are careful enough.

5. Voluntarily moving your eyes is exhausting in the fist 3 weeks (actually it's like making small rotations with the eye muscles http://forum.gettingstronger.org/index.php/topic,903.0.html ).

After that it becomes a habit just like staring and the subconscious will move the eyes even if you can't see anything.

http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Human_saccadic_eye_movements

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9203147

"It is common for myopes to have thinner eye wall tissue than emmetropes. In addition, if account is taken of the increased force required to provide normal saccadic movement of myopic (larger) eyes, then the shear force is up to seven times greater than that experienced for emmetropes."
« Last Edit: January 21, 2014, 02:30:02 AM by Steven »

Offline Steven

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Re: wearing plus lenses even for distance viewing
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2014, 02:39:28 AM »
http://www.janetgoodrichmethod.com/2008/04/22/return-of-the-sparkling-eyes-saccadic-motion/

"For those with myopia who understand the tight and fixated feeling of ‘staring’, the concept that the eyes must move to see is readily embraced.  When we teach vision activities, or ‘games’, we frequently mention the necessity of returning movement to the eyes and the visual system.  In this article I will discuss why the eyes need to move for clear eyesight.

First we discover that even when the eyes appear to be stationary, looking at a single point in space, they are in fact, moving.  The moves they are making are the tiny involuntary vibrations known as saccadic movement, or saccades.  Many of those who make regular visits to the optometrist have never heard of saccades, yet they are the most vital basic function of all eyesight.

Most people are familiar with the basic principles of vision; that light enters the pupil, falls on the retina and stimulates the retinal cells. The information acquired by these cells is transferred in a constant stream via the optic nerve to the visual cortex. Here these signals are interpreted into the vision that we utilize pretty much all day, everyday, for every interaction with the external world.

What is not always widely known is that it is the action of the saccades that brings the light into the eyes.  If they were to sit and wait for the light traveling at all angles around us to fall into the pupils, very little would find its way into what is in fact a really very small aperture.  Alfred Yarbus, a Russian biophysicist who researched eyesight and saccadic movements, demonstrated that if all saccadic movement stopped, within 3 seconds we would have a ‘blank field’, meaning there would be virtually no input to the retinal cells.  That’s how important saccadic movement is to eyesight.

I like to think of the saccades as ‘scooping’ light from the surroundings with each flickering rotation. From here it’s easy to embrace the idea that the faster the saccadic movement, the more light is entering the pupil and the more information the retina is receiving.  In the end the effect is clearer eyesight.

So the question becomes, what is slowing down the saccadic movement? Ask any sports coach what muscle state allows for the quickest responses, the most flexible action, and they will tell that it is not a tight muscle.  No, it’s the relaxed muscles that are ready to respond, to move easily and quickly at their task. Here a major portion of the physical relationship between tension in the visual system and blurred eyesight becomes evident.

There is a common habit among those with refractive error.  It’s most popular amongst myopes, but hyperopes and presbyopes do their share.  The habit I am speaking of is staring, and short of the saccades stopping, it’s pretty much the opposite of the quick, mobile eyes that are expressing good saccadic movement.

One of the first steps we take in improving eyesight is to become aware of our staring habits and their features.  Many myopes ask; ‘Which comes first, the stare or the refractive error?’  It’s a chicken and egg question, as myopia encourages staring and staring may assist in the development of refractive error. The reasons for this could include the effects caused by the common features of a really good stare. These include: tight eyes which tend to fix quite rigidly on one point, tense neck and shoulder muscles, tight belly (which also relates to anxiety), shallow tense breathing, a posture which takes the neck and spine out of alignment*, and often a reduction in blinking frequency. All of these have an effect on the way that the eyes and brain can function.

*The posture usually varies for the different refractive errors, but has the same overall effect.  Myopes tend to crane their neck forward and squint at things in the distance, straining to bring them closer.  Hyperopes and presbyopes will tend to lean back, kinking the neck in an effort to bring handheld materials further away.

To begin improving eyesight we first become aware of the ‘negative’ habits helping create an overall situation in the body that is conducive to blur.  The more we notice that we are doing these things, the more we can deliberately replace them with habits that encourage good eyesight.  Good visual habits assist muscles to relax and accomplish faster saccades. They start with practicing the opposite of the ‘stare features’ described above then go further into actively doing vision games on a regular basis.

-------    Begin with becoming aware of when you are staring at things and use the Magic Nose Pencil technique to change from looking at the world with a fixed gaze. Instead loosely sketch with your imaginary Nose Pencil around and on each object.  Do this with full attention for a period of time each day to really get your system used to it as a new habit, but also do it in little bits whenever you find yourself staring.
-------    Your head movements will be tiny on small, close objects, and large and sweeping on large, distant objects. My favourite way to express the feeling of this is that when your head makes the large movements around objects; your eyes are free to make the tiny saccadic jumps.  Think of your head as the vehicle and your eyes the passengers, sitting relaxed yet active and enjoying the view!

 

-------    For tight neck and shoulders do some self massage on a regular basis and get others to massage these muscles when you can.  Stretch your upper body regularly, especially if you do hours of desk/computer work, or do strong physical labour. Notice when your shoulders have crept up around your ears and deliberately relax them.

 

-------   Notice when you hold your breath, breathe quickly or only in the chest (any situation that makes you anxious). At these and all times, deliberately breathe slowly and deeply, letting your belly expand.  Relax your abdomen and breathe deeply, all the way down to your belly button.

 

-------    Do your best to sit and stand straight, and use good back support for sitting and strength tasks.

 

-------    Remember to blink frequently (every 3 – 4 seconds, or around 20 times per minute is average).

All of these new habits will contribute to a more relaxed visual system and self, increased ability towards good saccadic motion and better eyesight, and may help those with good eyesight maintain it without further effort.  For those with visual blur at any distance, specific vision games will continue this process by actively retraining the eyes and brain towards clearer vision. When healthy eyes ‘sparkle’, perhaps it’s the effect of flickering fast and joyful saccadic motion!"