Author Topic: Update !  (Read 4024 times)

Offline Steven

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Update !
« on: January 19, 2014, 03:33:01 AM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_blur

"When an animal's eye is in motion, the image will suffer from motion blur, resulting in an inability to resolve details. To cope with this, humans generally alternate between saccades (quick eye movements) and fixation (focusing on a single point). Saccadic masking makes motion blur during a saccade invisible. Similarly, smooth pursuit allows the eye to track a target in rapid motion, eliminating motion blur of that target instead of the scene."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saccade
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixation_%28visual%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smooth_pursuit

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saccadic_masking
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vestibulo-ocular_reflex

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optokinetic_tracking

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_movement_%28sensory%29

Fixation is the basic mode for birds.
Saccade movements are the basic mode for humans and monkeys.

When your Myopia increases you stop doing Saccade movement and you start fixating on everything. This halts the quick defocus during saccade movements ( that usually your brain ignores via Saccadic masking, but your eyes experience it fully ) and gives the eye no chance to recover.

More fixation exacerbates : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_of_vision and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phi_phenomenon

Proof :
Stare at the center of this picture : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lilac-Chaser.gif

The missing point becomes green and after a few more seconds all pink points disappear, leaving only the green dot to exist.

This means that fixation in humans leads to loss of information & heavy distortion of other information.

You can see "objective reality" only when your eyes are constantly moving.

I am right now using a +4 lenses and i currently reached 20/30. No matter what i see i never fixate anything.  I move my eyes consciously and refuse to focus. After 3 weeks it becomes a habit.

The best way to cure myopia is to use strong plus glasses while doing 24/7 Saccade movements.

Focusing (included in push printing) is counter productive because it overrides the natural way of seeing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_tracking

When doing close work you keep the text either by plus glasses or by physical distance far away to have the text blurry and use the same saccade movement to make it clear.

Question :
Does astigmatism gets back to 0 as myopia is cured ? Is astigmatism because of the elongation of the eye (after a certain degree of myopia) ?

Offline OtisBrown

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Re: Update !
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2014, 05:32:31 AM »
Hi Steven,

Subject: The most important result - is that you objectively exceed the 20/40 line.

Item:  I always admire a person who makes a commitment to wear the plus (of his choice) and is successful!

Item: The ONLY person who believes that he is successful - is the person who exceeds the 20/40 line - and continues to wear the plus.

Item: Too many people want "absolutely perfect".  Then they get "discouraged", when they do not get, "perfect".  I do not agree - I want to pass the REQURED LEGAL STANDARD.  I TRUST your measurement - and we should trust each other about this objective measurement we are making.  But I do think, if you continue wearing the plus, you will get very close to 20/20.

Otis>I can not answer your question directly about mild astigmatism, but some of your analysis suggests the answer.  That two eyes together, will have 20/20 (or better) when each eye has mild astigmatism.  As far as I am concerned, astigmatism is a "nit" - and not worth worrying about it.

Steven>   Question : Does astigmatism gets back to 0 as myopia is cured ? Is astigmatism because of the elongation of the eye (after a certain degree of myopia) ?

Otis> Astigmatism is NOT associated with the presumed "elongation of the eye".  In general, each eye (and most NORMAL EYES) will have mild or slight astigmatism - which can be measured.  It is totally NORMAL.  When you look at a Snellen - with both eyes open - you will read 20/20, or better.  (If you measure your refraction as slightly positive. )

Otis>  So, in general, once you get to a "positive refractive STATE", your astigmatism (if any) will be at a very low value.  I would not "worry" about it.  It will not prevent 20/20, and 20/18 vision.

Otis> Astigmatism or cylinder "correction", is almost never necessary.  This is why I check my own eyes with my own "spherical" lens.  I have always demanded "no astigmatism" - and never been turned down.

Otis> The ODs (who prescribe it) think they are doing you a "favor".  They are not - do not bother with it.

Best,
« Last Edit: January 19, 2014, 06:24:39 AM by OtisBrown »

Offline CapitalPrince

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Re: Update !
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2014, 05:58:12 AM »
I think saccadic movements are lost as a result of myopia. When things are blurry after a certain distance, the eyes can't focus on small details. yes information is lost, but i do not think it will cause any increase in myopia.

this seems to be mostly a refractive state issue, and when that is solved the other issues (muscle tension, blur, double vision, saccadic movements) seem to resolve themselves.

Using a super strong plus (+4D+) is never necessary. 

Offline NickGrouwen

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Re: Update !
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2014, 06:41:14 AM »
Yes I still remember this from years ago when I read dr. Bates book. He talked about saccadic movements of the eye which is what people with good eyesight and vision habits do subconsciously and thus preserve their eyesight, regardless of whether they work for hours with a computer or read many books (these kind of people are really rare nowadays in my experience). I think he had an exercise called shifting that worked with this...
« Last Edit: January 19, 2014, 07:12:23 AM by NickGrouwen »

Offline Steven

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Re: Update !
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2014, 08:20:37 AM »
Does astigmatism increases like myopia if one uses cylindrical lenses ?

When the saccadic movements are lost because of myopia it will cause additional strain on the eyes because all you do is stare. You stare at blurry distant things.

Staring means you are focusing all the time on fixed points. And all points that you truly see are very close to you.

So even when looking at things that are clear, because you developed this habit of staring you are focusing excessively.

Focusing excessively makes the Ciliary muscle to never be in a relaxed state and so no myopia can be corrected naturally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciliary_muscle

You can see that by making a habit from doing saccadic movements all day long with a plus lens you get much better results on the snallen test, compared to only using a plus lens and staring at everything.

Using a stronger plus does what a stronger minus does but in opposite ways.
You just have to remember that no matter how bad you see you have to move your eyes. Staring is not helping you at all. In fact it makes your eyes more elongated as they try to focus desperately.

The trick is to consciously move your eyes without focusing on precise points. Then a big improvement can be made. This is from my own experience.

Offline mailliam

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Re: Update !
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2014, 06:24:21 AM »
An exercise Dr. Frauenfeld recommends on his website is a periphery vision exercise. You look at an object about 30 metres away from you. Then pay attention to your periphery vision while still looking at the object.

I have found this exercise helpful in activating my sacccadic movements. I reduce my fixation on a single point and instead pay attention to my periphery, which relieves the focus on one single point. What I feel is a "bouncing" sensation in my eyes. They move rapidly without conscious effort and it feels like they bounce from point to point, almost instantly.

I have tried this periphery exercise while reading close-up too and it definitely feels relaxing and easier to read for longer periods of time.

Offline OtisBrown

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Re: Update !
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2014, 07:02:20 AM »
Hi Steven,

Otis> I totally agree with you on this point about cylinder.  In fact, if the person wishes to check his own refraction, you can do this with your own test lenses.

Steven> Focusing excessively makes the Ciliary muscle to never be in a relaxed state and so no myopia can be corrected naturally.

Otis>  Almost all "astigmatic" measurements are cosmetic, because they impress the optometrist - but never you.  They just "think" they are helping you.  The cylinder prescriptions I got (before I wised-up) gave me severe headaches.  Most people can see 20/20, with no cylinder - and I certainly argue that if you read the 20/40 line (on your way to 20/20) you should not wear any cylinder.

Otis> This is my personal judgment - but I think many others are becoming wise as to the fact that "cylinder" is not wise nor necessary.

++++++

Otis> There several additional issues we can be certain of:

1) An optometrist is not equipped to help anyone with plus-prevention.

2) Plus prevention will REQUIRE an intelligent person who has deep insights, and the motivation to "commit" to long-term wearing of a "comfortable plus".

3) The person must be objective when reading his Snellen, and reasonable.  He must read most of the letters on the 20/40 line himself.

4) Plus-prevention is not a "fad".  It is never a 'cure'.  Because of the facts available, (eye goes down -1/2 diopter per each year in school), there is no 'cure', because if you go back to school, your vision starts down yet again.  (This is the characteristic of all natural eyes - and is not a "failure").  It is just that you must "restart" the plus - if you see your Snellen going back down towards 20/40.

5) Each person is truly different.  One person (at 20/60) will wear the plus correctly for nine months, and see no results - while the NEXT person, will wear the plus and slowly exceed the 20/40 line -- on his way to naked-eye 20/20.

No one can "follow you around" and force you to wear a plus intelligently.  This is why these efforts can never be considered medical, or even to be directed by a medical individual.  They are personal - but are based on the best scientific evidence we have about all natural eyes.

I know these statements will cause us many arguments - but I consider personal objective success to be the true goal of science.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2014, 08:45:58 AM by OtisBrown »

Offline Steven

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Re: Update !
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2014, 09:27:41 AM »
An exercise Dr. Frauenfeld recommends on his website is a periphery vision exercise. You look at an object about 30 metres away from you. Then pay attention to your periphery vision while still looking at the object.

I have found this exercise helpful in activating my sacccadic movements. I reduce my fixation on a single point and instead pay attention to my periphery, which relieves the focus on one single point. What I feel is a "bouncing" sensation in my eyes. They move rapidly without conscious effort and it feels like they bounce from point to point, almost instantly.

I have tried this periphery exercise while reading close-up too and it definitely feels relaxing and easier to read for longer periods of time.

Yes, you do not focus on things. You look around. You pay attention to everything not on the center of the eye.

Offline Alex_Myopic

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Re: Update !
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2014, 02:08:44 PM »
Tom Quackenbush rejects most peripheral vision exercises in which you try to see clearly with peripheral vision. It makes the myopia worse due to "destroying" central fixation. He gives the peripheral vision a greater role in detecting motion.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2014, 02:35:12 PM by Alex_Myopic »

Offline NickGrouwen

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Re: Update !
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2014, 11:20:53 PM »
Yeah I've also read about the importance of central fixation and how dr. Bates said that people with bad vision are trying to see everything equally clear, trying to see everything at once, while people with good vision are focusing on one point at a time, continually shifting from point to point on an object to make it clear.

1. CENTER OF VISION

You need to remain conscious of what you’re looking at with your center of vision, meaning you can’t “space out” and think of something else. If you aren’t using your center of vision, you aren’t really looking at anything at all.

2. REGISTER THE DETAILS

It doesn’t much matter whether the next detail is far away or close to the first one. There is no faking this process — you have to be mentally engaged by thinking about what you’re looking at. Moving your central vision in the right way will feel too slow at first, but you will adapt and find you are processing details more quickly.
http://eyesightblog.wordpress.com/tag/bates-method/
« Last Edit: January 22, 2014, 01:42:45 AM by NickGrouwen »

Offline mailliam

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Re: Update !
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2014, 06:12:20 AM »
Tom Quackenbush rejects most peripheral vision exercises in which you try to see clearly with peripheral vision. It makes the myopia worse due to "destroying" central fixation. He gives the peripheral vision a greater role in detecting motion.

I find the opposite happens. I'm not trying to use my periphery vision to replace my central vision. I've found that by doing the periphery exercise, and adding it to close-up reading (as an exercise) it helps improve central fixation.

Yeah I've also read about the importance of central fixation and how dr. Bates said that people with bad vision are trying to see everything equally clear, trying to see everything at once, while people with good vision are focusing on one point at a time, continually shifting from point to point on an object to make it clear.

I have read that too. However when I try to focus on one point a time, the effort is conscious and slow. What ends up happening is the saccadic movements are not fast enough and I end up staring. By shifting my attention to my periphery during the exercise I avoid staring because my eyes relax and saccadic movements feel more natural (the bouncing sensation I describe).

Offline NickGrouwen

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Re: Update !
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2014, 07:12:29 AM »
Yeah I know...it's tough :( I have a major concentration problem in general, so it's hard for me to do shifting...here's hoping it'll come naturally as my vision improves

Offline Myoctim

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Re: Update !
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2014, 06:46:30 AM »
Question : Does astigmatism gets back to 0 as myopia is cured ? Is astigmatism because of the elongation of the eye (after a certain degree of myopia) ?

There are 3 causes of astigmatism:

-corneal astigmatism
-lenticular astigmatism
-retinal astigmatism



AFAIK in most cases the main part is caused by corneal astigmatism.
If you look at the frauenfeldclinic.com for astigmatism, Dr. Frauenfeld says it automatically should decrease when myopia gets lower.

The thing I wonder about is does reading can cause astigmatism?
I know about some emmetropic folks getting astigmatic after needing to read a lot at work.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2014, 12:32:10 PM by Myoctim »

Offline Myoctim

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Re: Update !
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2014, 12:44:04 PM »
I think saccadic movements are lost as a result of myopia.

I also think so.
Putting on my full prescription, focusing happens instantly so staring becomes boring and I love to scan my environment.

Not so if wearing my 0.5D underprescription. Because now focusing needs some time I tend to stare
until the image gets clear and if so I mostly keep on staring for preserving that clearness.


Offline CapitalPrince

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Re: Update !
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2014, 07:43:44 PM »
an emmetropic eye has to acommodate and converge for any distance less than optical infinity. However a myopic eye loses focus at a certain distance. myopic eyes are essentially converging in space in front of the object. the eyes do not meet on the object and why myopic people have a rather lifeless gaze. this is why information and saccadic movement is lost. when a myopic person wears contacts/glasses, his eyes can shift very fast because they are now operating in a plane that allows the eyes to "meet".

in order to get rid of this uncomfortable feeling of the eyes not meeting, its necessary to exceed the 20/20 and maybe read the 20/20 with a +0.5D. even though i am at a weak 20/20 driving is still abit uncomfortable due to this problem, since my eyes are not able to shift as fast and retain as much information as an emmetropic (max visual acuity) eye.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2014, 08:27:14 PM by CapitalPrince »