Author Topic: Software for Vision Improvement (NOT an Ad - Actual User Here)  (Read 5699 times)

Offline gettingstronger12

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Software for Vision Improvement (NOT an Ad - Actual User Here)
« on: February 23, 2014, 06:02:12 PM »
Hi  guys, I've been following this stuff with Todd for years now, hadn't checked the original post in some time (http://gettingstronger.org/2010/07/improve-eyesight-and-throw-away-your-glasses/), and I've been lazy about keeping up with it, mostly due to an inability to keep track of any tangible results. (If you've got this ability, you are fortunate indeed, as I lack the patience and concentration to pull it off).

Apparently now comments are closed... anyway one of my friends makes fun of me mercilessly about my quest to "naturally" improve my terrible myopia, all in good fun of course, and late last week he found this article and sent it to our group "chain":
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/health/med-tech/this-app-trains-you-to-see-farther-16506910

I've been using it for two days, and while I can't say what it will do, I am *very* hopeful for the results, as it seems to operate on the principles we've been discussing - small, incremental stresses and improvements. While his research apparently focuses on the brain and does not claim to do anything to the physical structure of the eye, if what we had been talking about in the comments of that original GS post is true, I see no reason why the physical structure wouldn't follow suit, over time.

I think this guy deserves the support of everyone here. In other words, go vote with your dollar, that someone is taking all this to the next level. As far as I can tell, this is the first time we're crossing into real science being applied not just to data, but to our methods to correct what that data represents; in other words, engineering a solution. The more people support him, the more money will be in the "pool" of this market for him and others who may want to enter, and the free market will give us even better solutions. Can you imagine if all the money the market now pours into the glasses/contacts industry to make their vision worse started pouring into solutions to eliminate or prevent the need for them in the first place?

Please post your thoughts, results, comments etc here...  for example, what is your take on the software? If you're using it, how do you think you will progress? How do you think it can be improved?

As for me, my first plan of action other than using the software at least once a day will be to purchase contacts and glasses that will allow me to"barely" see the letters on my computer screen at work even at a close enough distance; in other words, the bare minimum, something I should have done a while ago. In addition to the scoring of the system, I will then be a better position to notice when I can "downgrade" once again and still read the letters at the same distance.

Offline CapitalPrince

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Re: Software for Vision Improvement (NOT an Ad - Actual User Here)
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2014, 06:48:05 PM »
It's very unlikely this program would have any drastic permanent effects. The program is basically training your eyes to shift, practice central fixation and practice focusing above your limits.

People try to come up with all the complicated solutions. When the solution to improving eyesight is very simple: push focus until you feel stress on your eyes.

Offline gettingstronger12

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Re: Software for Vision Improvement (NOT an Ad - Actual User Here)
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2014, 07:52:55 PM »
It's very unlikely this program would have any drastic permanent effects. The program is basically training your eyes to shift, practice central fixation and practice focusing above your limits.

People try to come up with all the complicated solutions. When the solution to improving eyesight is very simple: push focus until you feel stress on your eyes.

How is this not pushing focus/putting stress on your eyes?

How about voting me with your dollars? ;) I think the infos I had put out are just as substantial as the app.

Yeah. Obviously, I hope I can do this for a living, but I don't believe it artificially creating demands so that one can benefit from the profits. Put it this way, I would prefer that myopia rehabilitation industry doesn't exist. Do we still need more money for research? Maybe the solution is already there... In the extreme case, I will probably just publish a book and that's it.

Artificially creating demand? I'd suggest "uncovering demand" - I'm talking about spreading the word and people who are interested in buying it (real demand), actually doing so. Before my friend sent me the link, I simply didn't know about it. And if you don't understand how increased profits will increase market entrants and thus solutions, I mean, that's pretty self-explanatory.

Why would you prefer myopia rehabilitation doesn't exist?

Anyway I'm new to the forum, I don't know what new developments have come out since I last perused the interwebs about natural myopia improvement, and I will search your name to see what stuff you put out as well.

Offline CapitalPrince

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Re: Software for Vision Improvement (NOT an Ad - Actual User Here)
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2014, 08:05:34 PM »
hey tom i'll support you with my dollars  :)

the solution is so simple the myopia rehabiliatition industry obfuscates things. It takes a hell a lot time to find out what actually works and what is bs.

In the long run this program would have no effect. since the people are not addressing the real cause of myopia. and how much permanent effect does 10 mins of shifting and pushing focus and clicking really have? It takes a long time to see results



Offline Todd Becker

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Re: Software for Vision Improvement (NOT an Ad - Actual User Here)
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2014, 10:03:02 PM »
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/health/med-tech/this-app-trains-you-to-see-farther-16506910

gs12,

Thanks for posting this.  Coincidentally, a friend sent me the exact same link. I've been looking into it, but don't have a firm opinion yet.

I think this  UltimEyes "app" is quite interesting.  It addresses a completely different aspect of myopia or visual perception than most of what has been discussed on this site so far.  If you read carefully, it's not about optical resolution in the eye, but rather the cognitive contribution to visual acuity made by the visual cortex in the brain.  Apparently, it's been tested with baseball players and has some experimental validation. 

Here is what the article claims:

Quote
UltimEyes exercises the visual cortex, the part of our brain that controls vision. Brain researchers have discovered that the visual cortex breaks down the incoming information from our eyes into fuzzy patterns called Gabor stimuli. The theory behind UltimEyes is that by directly confronting the eyes with Gabor stimuli, you can train your brain to process them more efficiently—which, over time, improves your brain's ability to create clear vision at farther distances.

Gabor stimuli are real, and there is a lot of research into how they relate to visual acuity.

The results, if true, are quite impressive.  As reported in the journal Current Biology,

Quote
Seitz worked with 19 players on the University of California, Riverside, baseball team, and showed that his app UltimEyes lengthened the distance at which the players could see clearly by an average of 31 percent. After using the app for 30 25-minute intervals, players saw an improvement that pushed many of them beyond normal 20/20 vision, including seven who attained freakishly good 20/7.5 vision—meaning that at a distance of 20 feet, they were clearly seeing what someone with normal vision could see at no farther than 7.5 feet away

It is plausible that cognitive training might improve visual acuity for someone who already has normal 20/20 vision, to help get them down to 20/10 or 20/7.5.  However, that doesn't necessarily mean the method would help someone who had strong myopia get down to 20/20. 

UltimEyes is not the only product out there offering to improve visual acuity by enhancing Gabor stimuli.  Here is another one:

http://www.revitalvision.com/Doctors/ScientificBackground/

I'd like to see more supporting research.  I might download the app and try it myself, although some of the review I saw on iTunes suggested the app has bugs or glitches on certain platforms.  If you or anyone else has success and can post objective evidence of progress, then by all means please post it here!

I don't see a contradiction between this approach and focusing methods such as print pushing.  There may be multiple, complementary approaches to improving vision.  Cognitive methods can also embody the principles of Hormetism, using gradual and repeated stimuli to drive plastic changes -- in this case in the brain, rather than the eye.   

Todd
« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 09:09:44 PM by Todd Becker »

Offline mailliam

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Re: Software for Vision Improvement (NOT an Ad - Actual User Here)
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2014, 10:51:21 AM »
Thanks for sharing this.

There's a video demonstration on the link you posted. Is there much more to it than that?

Some of the pull focusing exercises I do involve exactly what the video demonstration was doing. A sort of 'rapid fire' with my eyesight.


Offline OtisBrown

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Re: Software for Vision Improvement (NOT an Ad - Actual User Here)
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2014, 04:58:40 PM »
Hi Tom,
Subject:  Poorly conducted studies - where the person is in ignorance of then nature of his own study.  The refusal to ask the question about the adverse effect a minus lens always has when prescribed an worn - all the time.

Item: The Einstellung effect.  (Scientific American, March, 2014).  It is the brain's tendency to stick with the most familiar solution to a problem, and stubbornly ignore alternatives.

Item:  It is always a mistake - to put the "foxes" in charge of running a "blind study" - on the "chickens".  The study ALWAYS comes out in FAVOR of the financial interests of the "foxes".  Even when scientific evidence is presented about this issue - the "Einstellung Effect", kicks in, and you get this tragic result.

+++++

Two questions were to be answered by this [Baltimore] project:

1. Can vision training reduce myopia?
2. Can vision training improve the distance visual acuity of myopes?
It is important to understand the difference between these two questions. The first question has to do with the actual refractive error or optical properties of the eye. It can be measured with various instruments to a high degree of accuracy, and is the true measure of the amount of myopia present.

The second question has to do with a person's ability to read letters or interpret figures on a distant chart. Two individuals with the same refractive error may vary considerably in their ability to interpret blurred images. Their visual acuities could therefore be different.

The result of the project was that most of the trainees had achieved a significant improvement in their visual acuity by the end of the program. They had apparently learned to see better in the distance. Unfortunately, when they were rechecked five months after the program ended, many of them had lost much of the improvement. Still, there was no doubt that vision training was able to improve visual acuity to a limited extent.

+++++

This study was conducted for ONLY ONE REASON.  It was to discredit the concept that "negative status" for the natural eye - could be prevented - by "exercise".  This is they only study a medical person ever "finance" - where they can pervert the goal of the study, or "cloud" the mind of the person in the study.  This is why I am a "pro-Bates", and "Pro-Dr. Alex" person.

The reason that the "foxes" win - is because the person is not challenged to OBJECTIVELY measure his own refractive STATE - himself.

That is key for a realistic, scientific preventive study.   I have review this concept, and written a proposal, where the person himself would be told the difficult truth about this issue (when he still has 20/40, and could get out of it - with strong motivation to do so).

This is why I do not make, "excessive claims of success", but limit myself to suggesting that a change of refraction is possible, if you make your refractive measurements yourself.  This removes the issue of prevention - from the "foxes".

But it truly means much more "trained intelligence and skill" - in the person himself - who would be part of this type of preventive study.

I can personally confirm a measurement accuracy between a person's Snellen (visual acuity) and his refractive STATE.  Most people can exceed an accuracy of 0.25 diopters - with practice.

Therefore, they could measure a refractive change from -1/2 diopters to +1/2 diopters - that would prove more than "visual acuity" change.  It would PROVE refractive change - to the person who has the courage and persistence to do this with wise wearing of a plus lens.

This would also destroy the scientific basis of prescribing a minus lens.   Then it would be required that each professional - off you an intelligent alternative while you still could read the 20/40 line.  But that would required that you do most of the preventive work - on your own.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 05:10:21 PM by OtisBrown »

Offline gettingstronger12

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Re: Software for Vision Improvement (NOT an Ad - Actual User Here)
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2014, 06:41:18 PM »
Thanks for all your responses, really appreciate it. I was hoping to stir something up like this.

First off, I am the first to admit I don't know jack s*** about most of this compared to you guys. And I'm really happy to see even more interest than before! I've got a lot to learn... I really need to get this handled already and stop messing around.

it's not about optical resolution in the eye, but rather the cognitive contribution to visual acuity made by the visual cortex in the brain.  Apparently, it's been tested with baseball players and has some experimental validation. 

It is plausible that cognitive training might improve visual acuity for someone who already has normal 20/20 vision, to help get them down to 20/10 or 20/7.5.  However, that doesn't necessarily mean the method would help someone who had strong myopia get down to 20/20. 

Yeah, it seems to be about the brain, but while using the program I seem to feel it in my eyes... when I'm scanning that grey background waiting for images to appear, which they do slowly and randomly, since I know how my brain will perceive them once my eyes are able to do so, I feel like my actual physical range is being pushed to the limit before I'm able to see anything and eliminate the image (how the program works - click on it and it poofs away, faster = higher score). Is this inaccurate, and is what I'm describing completely unrelated to print pushing?

Those #s make sense to me since as you mentioned it's addressing an entirely different component, almost like a "turbo" boost. Still, I'm thrilled that there is now a "product" for myopia with science and a seemingly concerned creator behind it, as I expressed in my OP.

I'd like to see more supporting research.  I might download the app and try it myself, although some of the review I saw on iTunes suggested the app has bugs or glitches on certain platforms.  If you or anyone else has success and can post objective evidence of progress, then by all means please post it here!

I don't see a contradiction between this approach and focusing methods such as print pushing.  There may be multiple, complementary approaches to improving vision.  Cognitive methods can also embody the principles of Hormetism, using gradual and repeated stimuli to drive plastic changes -- in this case in the brain, rather than the eye.   

Ha I saw the same review, decided to download it anyway. Works absolutely fine for me as far as the functioning of the software itself.

That's what i wanted to know more than anything, if this might be a complementary approach or the two were mutually exclusive in some way. And of course how it might be related to print pushing, if at all.

Anyway after using the program several times I can't see how it can hurt, only help, if only to enact "plastic changes in the brain" as Todd said. Does anyone see any way this couldn't help, if applied in conjunction with print pushing? Or phrased another way, does anyone see it as potentially harmful, or counterproductive in any way to reducing myopia itself? If so I want to know as if there's a convincing case I would be the first to stop using it.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 09:10:02 PM by Todd Becker »

Offline gettingstronger12

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Re: Software for Vision Improvement (NOT an Ad - Actual User Here)
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2014, 07:13:09 PM »
Ha this guy is very much like me, especially when he starts talking about dabbling for years he was ready to give it a real go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vEyOx85OUI

Offline Arachne

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Re: Software for Vision Improvement (NOT an Ad - Actual User Here)
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2014, 08:05:12 AM »
All very interesting. I think that improving one's visual acuity can only be beneficial. After all, a big reason for the development and worsening of myopia is poor visual habits. If training one's visual acuity can help to cultivate good visual habits - for instance by encouraging better saccadic movements, which this software does - that's got to be a good thing.

I'd been looking for something like this to complement my print-pushing and focus-pulling exercises, so thanks for the post. I've downloaded the software on my iPad and done my first session.

I'll report back in a month or so on whether it's had any effect.

Offline CapitalPrince

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Re: Software for Vision Improvement (NOT an Ad - Actual User Here)
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2014, 08:30:52 AM »
i think if you use this software close up for extended periods of time it may actually do more HARM than good..

Offline Todd Becker

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Re: Software for Vision Improvement (NOT an Ad - Actual User Here)
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2014, 05:36:09 PM »
Good point, Sam.  How about using the software while print pushing, with plus lenses if necessary?  That might combine the benefits of active focusing at the edge of blur with the putative cognitive benefits. 

I haven't yet tried it because it doesn't work on an iPhone or a first generation iPad, which would have been most convenient for me.  Maybe I will wait for others to report back on their results before making my own judgment.

Todd

Offline Ydgrunite

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Re: Software for Vision Improvement (NOT an Ad - Actual User Here)
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2014, 06:45:10 PM »
Aaron Seitz, the University of California neuroscientist mentioned in the Popular Mechanics article from the original post, was interviewed Saturday on the CBC Radio science show Quirks and Quarks about UltimEyes.

Here is a link to the nine-minute podcast segment:
Quirks and Quarks - Exercise for the Eyes - 2014/03/01

Offline CapitalPrince

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Re: Software for Vision Improvement (NOT an Ad - Actual User Here)
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2014, 07:02:33 PM »
to be honest, i believe their may be some placebo effects of this program. professional athletes do very little prolonged close work and their eyes are actively focusing on distance objects so its not a surprise their eyesight is max visual acuity or positive refractive state.

i would like to see a test comparing
20 mins shifting in the distance
 vs
20 mins using the program