Author Topic: GS12 Vision Improvement Thread  (Read 2592 times)

Offline gettingstronger12

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GS12 Vision Improvement Thread
« on: March 02, 2014, 06:19:18 AM »
I've been wearing minus lenses since first or second grade, and now my vision is about -7 L (likely more) -5.50 R.. embarrassing to even write it on a forum. I've been a huge dabbler with this... with myopia this bad, lack of motivation (and belief) has been a huge problem.

I went to a glasses shop today and they asked if I wanted to use the machine to check my vision, and honestly I'm so damn disgusted by what those things have done to me over the years I just decided to figure it out for myself best I could, and ordered two pairs (total $40). Maybe I screwed up with purchasing the prescriptions I got, I just need to feel like I'm doing something, and the prescription I was wearing was higher than the minimum needed to read or see a computer at a not-super-close distance.

Since my left eye is worse and that's been a big hindrance to motivation since I'll need to correct that to equal my right eye (right?).

Pair #1: So, for the first pair, I got -5L 0R, because with -5 I can do close up computer work of which my job requires a lot at a distance that isn't insanely close - *sigh*

The other issue is I'll be able to do print pushing without covering my right eye, since I will naturally rely on the only eye that can see, and the distance is short (undercorrected) enough that I can put a book or computer in front of my face and push the book back or move slightly away without having to sit really far away or hyperextend my arm.

Thoughts/suggestions on the above please?

Pair #2: For the second pair, I got +1.25/+3.5, which, after testing their lenses, allowed my left eye to be slightly clearer at the same distance. The glasses are small (so I need to look pretty much straight to get the effect), which may have been a mistake.

Is there any danger in wearing the pluses as much as possible? Will it likely do anything?

Do these two pair prescriptions make "sense", and if not, how would you change them and why?

How would you use both of them to safely ensure the quickest progress?

Finally, the Snellen terrifies me:
I found this: http://www.i-see.org/block_letter_eye_chart.pdf

Sadly, though I can't find a measuring tape at the moment, at what feels like about 20 feet, I can barely see black of the E of the 200 line.. fml.

I feel like the vast majority of people on the forum at -3, -4, something like that. Has anyone made serious progress from myopia as bad as mine? How?!
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 06:23:32 AM by gettingstronger12 »

Offline CapitalPrince

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Re: GS12 Vision Improvement Thread
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2014, 06:34:38 AM »
your myopia is high. you should not wear a plus.

just wear an undercorrection like -4D (or whatever comfortable) for print pushing at near. Wear a -6D (or whatever comfortable) to pull focus in the distance.

go to frauenfeld clinic, there are some stories about people who recovered from high myopia. Alex Frauenfeld himself recovered from about -4D of myopia (so he claims when i asked him in a email). It's going to be a slow journey though.

just get glasses on zennioptical for $7. screw the eye doctors who should have TOLD use to take off our distance glasses for close work and wear a plus.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 06:38:57 AM by CapitalPrince »

Offline gettingstronger12

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Re: GS12 Vision Improvement Thread
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2014, 07:25:51 AM »
your myopia is high. you should not wear a plus.

just wear an undercorrection like -4D (or whatever comfortable) for print pushing at near. Wear a -6D (or whatever comfortable) to pull focus in the distance.

go to frauenfeld clinic, there are some stories about people who recovered from high myopia. Alex Frauenfeld himself recovered from about -4D of myopia (so he claims when i asked him in a email). It's going to be a slow journey though.

just get glasses on zennioptical for $7. screw the eye doctors who should have TOLD use to take off our distance glasses for close work and wear a plus.

Thanks for the response/encouragement.

Why do you say I shouldn't wear a plus? Is it dangerous? Unproductive?

Also, as I mentioned I got a -5D for my left eye and 0 for my right.. that just about lets me do computer work, requiring me to be a bit closer to the computer than I'd like, which I think is better than the opposite. Is it bad to have -5 and 0 by the way, and does what I'm doing make sense to get my left eye to "catch up"?

I currently live in Asia, I'm not sure if zennioptical delivers here, will shoot them an email.

I'm a little skeptical of Alex to be honest, I used to do online marketing and the whole site is set up as a giant funnel for payed subscribers, it seems to me. Even the "users" on the forum seem like they could have been created by the site admin(s).

Offline CapitalPrince

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Re: GS12 Vision Improvement Thread
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2014, 07:34:41 AM »
no wearing a plus (for -7/-5D myopia) is not productive. you will not notice much results by just a plus and doing nothing. you need actively pull focus with a blurred image to gain improvements.

you probably shouldn't go -5 and 0. maybe like -5 an -3.

Yes frauenfeld clinic is fake. Alex Frauenfeld is Mark D meyers. Some of the reviews, success stories and users are probably real (but who knows). BUT his advice on his website is good. Alex is a real person and if you have a question shoot him a email. He usually replies in 1-2 days.

my father who went from 20/40 to 20/20+ essentially used his method of focus pulling. So i know that it works. but it takes hours a day of doing that for the improvements to "lock in".
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 07:38:22 AM by CapitalPrince »

Offline gettingstronger12

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Re: GS12 Vision Improvement Thread
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2014, 08:44:10 AM »
Fuck the majority of these quack optometrists out there.. FUCK YOU! They should all go crawl in the same hole and die. I'm very physically capable, who knows, maybe I could have been an athlete.

I just got a very honest message from a prominent member of the forum here, confirming my suspicions, that recovery is highly unlikely for someone with myopia as bad as mine. I tremendously appreciate his helpful and honest messages.

I am so sick of corrective eyewear, especially wearing glasses, I guess what I'm just going to do is get contacts as low as possible to see what I need to see, do print pushing if/when I can. Reduce the contacts when I notice I can. Use the software I mentioned. And that's it.

I have too many things going on in my life to pursue a pipe dream and have it consume my thoughts.. maybe over a couple years I'll get some results.

Let's make March 3rd National Go Tell Your Optometrist To Go Fuck Himself Day

Thanks, Todd can you delete this thread please.

Offline CapitalPrince

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Re: GS12 Vision Improvement Thread
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2014, 08:48:33 AM »
LOL

yes to totally get rid of your glasses (even in a few years) is very unlikely. But its very important to STOP the problem BEFORE anything bad happens. -7D is nearing dangerously high myopia levels.

the ODs are boneheads and some are just pure malicious. Unfortunately most of us had to learn that the hard way
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 08:53:06 AM by CapitalPrince »

Offline OtisBrown

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Re: GS12 Vision Improvement Thread
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2014, 08:53:16 AM »
Hi GS12,

That reflects my scientific opinion also.  But I always felt that it is better to, "light a candle - than to curse the darkness".

Yes the "darkness" is promoted by these OD "scientists", who CLAIM that a minus has no adverse effect on all natural eyes.

My goal was to help my sister's kids, AVOID THE MINUS, by always passing the 20/40 line.  They wore the plus in college, because they realized there was NO OTHER choice.

Were they successful?  Well they pass the 20/40 line, and for the more motivated "child", he passes and exceeds the 20/20 line.  (More athletic).  Is this success counted as a "medical success".  No, of course not.  But they avoided the problem - and they AVOIDED these ODs and MDs, by always passing the required line.

No OD or MD will EVER tell you anything about this.  This is why Todd "discovered" Severson, wore the plus, and got out of it.

That is why we are posting scientific prevention remarks here.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 12:26:51 PM by OtisBrown »

Offline gettingstronger12

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Re: GS12 Vision Improvement Thread
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2014, 09:41:51 AM »
What if I use + contact lenses?

The glasses I had been using for about a year were -7 L -4.25 R ... my left is very clear though even that is technically a tad undercorrected, which I did intentionally when I got them. The right is somewhat clear but more undercorrected than the left, in order to rely on my left more. Still, I can't print push because the distance is too great (have to sit back very far or hyperextend arm)

What if I simply got +1 contacts and wore the two together, ONLY using the glasses when I absolutely need to, then increase the plus over time as long as I'm able to handle it. And just move through the world in general with the + contacts.

If the (increasing) minus can fuck up our eyes so bad, it makes sense to me that t heconstant (increasing) use of plus should be able to do the same in the reverse over a long enough period of time. A steady push in the opposite direction.

Does this make sense to anyone else?
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 09:51:20 AM by gettingstronger12 »

Offline CapitalPrince

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Re: GS12 Vision Improvement Thread
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2014, 09:49:33 AM »
my views:
-wearing a plus however strong as no effect
-you need to active focus on the edge of blur to gain improvements (this can be done with or without a plus)

you are overcomplicating the process, their is no need for plus contacts.

some suggestions:
-wear a plus lenses over minus contacts for all close work
-wear a -4D/-1D or something for close work
-wear a -6D/-3D or whatever comfortable for distance
-practice pulling focus for at least an hour a day

Also it does not "work" that that. you cannot undo a -7D damage by ONLY wearing plus lenses (and nothing else). A plus lenses, puts the eye in an open environment the eye will not magically move positive without a positive stimulus
 
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 09:54:53 AM by CapitalPrince »

Offline Ydgrunite

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Re: GS12 Vision Improvement Thread
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2014, 10:34:34 AM »
I agree with CapitalPrince.  Do not wear plus lenses (glasses or contacts) with high myopia.

My opinion differs a little with respect to the undercorrection to use.  I thnk that you should try to reduce the difference in refractive error between the eyes as you improve them.

I recommend:
- wear -4D/-2.5D for close work
- wear -6D/-4.5D for distance

If you see improvement, then your next lenses after these could further reduce the difference between eyes.

Offline Todd Becker

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Re: GS12 Vision Improvement Thread
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2014, 01:27:11 PM »
gs12,

I understand your frustration, but don't throw in the towel.  There is hope.  People on this forum and elsewhere have made tremendous improvements.  Think about it -- even if you don't get to 20/20 vision, a significant reduction in your myopia can have significant benefits.  Any improvements will extend your range of focus from a few inches to at least several feet.  That in itself is a huge improvement in quality of life.  Seeing people in focus, finding things on your desk -- every inch you increase will improve your life.  You may still need glasses, but you'll become less dependent on them. And the fact of changing from decline to improvement will show you that you can improve in other aspects of your life is well.  Don't underestimate the power of gradual improvement.

You ask why the plus lens is not useful for someone with strong myopia.  The reason is simple:  The whole point of plus lenses is to make your eyes work to focus on something about 10-20" from your eyes -- a book or a computer.  People who have weak myopia (less than 2 or 3 diopters) can still read books or computers in focus, so they need plus lenses to make this harder, to make their eyes work at "the edge of blur".  Myopia will only reverse if you provide incremental defocus by actively focusing at the limits of blur.  We call this activity "print pushing" -- pushing the book or computer away so that it just begins to blur, then pulling back every so slightly.   Keeping it slightly uncomfortable, but never painful, provides just the stimulus needed for the eye to remodel itself.

Now if you have strong myopia, it is already hard for your unaided eyes to focus on a book or computer.  You can read at the edge of blur even without plus lenses.  In fact, holding a book at 10" may even make it unreadable.  So what you need are not plus lenses, but under corrected lenses.  That is exactly what CapitalPrince and Ydgrunite are recommending -- shaving several diopters off your lenses for close reading.  That should put your blur point between 10"-20", which is just where you need it.  And for distance, the under correction should be somewhat less -- about 0.5 to 1.0 diopters.

In short the whole point is to pick a prescription that induces just the right degree of defocus -- for YOU.  What works for you will necessarily be different than what works for a weak myope.  To use a weight lifting analogy, to induce muscle growth and improve strength, you should chose a weight that works your muscle right at the edge of failure.  It is pointless to choose a weight you cannot lift, and equally pointless to pick a weight that is too easy to lift.  Our organs only respond positively to stressors within effective limits.

I agree with CapitalPrince (Sam) and many others on this site that, to be effective,  print pushing and distance focusing must be done actively -- with intentional cognitive attention to resolving blurs into crisp edges at points of high contrast, like text, door and window frames, electrical power lines, tree branches, and the like.  Mindless staring or wearing plus lenses with trying to see more clearly, is either ineffective or much less effective than active focusing.

Once your eyesight improves, you will periodically replace your glasses with weaker and weaker lenses.  Once you get to -3 or less, you can consider plus lenses.

Make sense?

A final word…it is pointless to get mad at optometrists or at the world.  That will not do anything to improve your situation.  Embrace the attitude of the great Stoic philosophers and focus on what you can change.  Take delight in incremental changes that increase your freedom. Don't expect overnight success. Expect unsteady improvement -- plateaus where nothing happens for weeks, followed by sudden leaps forward and occasional steps backward -- especially when you are tired or worn out.  Be disciplined and dedicated, but don't get angry at yourself or others.  That's a complete waste of time and energy, and you need to make good use of your energy.

Todd
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 01:39:56 PM by Todd Becker »

Offline CapitalPrince

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Re: GS12 Vision Improvement Thread
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2014, 02:15:59 PM »
todd said it very well.

In fact even if you do print pushing passively (without really an active intent) you will get little to no results. improvement is indeed possible. But most peeople do vision improvement the wrong way using eye exercises, bates, eye yoga, or merely "defocusing" and get no improvement. It is a very tedious and slow process.

Also bates wasn't entirely wrong. centralizing and shifting, swinging are great for active focus. but his premise of only relaxation is probably off. you need to incorporate the bates concepts to clearing a blurry or distance image actively (for long periods of time).

i don;t like concept of "defocus" because people get the wrong idea that is they just look at a blurry image their vision will improve.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 02:27:05 PM by CapitalPrince »

Offline OtisBrown

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Re: GS12 Vision Improvement Thread
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2014, 07:28:11 PM »
Hi Sam,

Otis>  I totally agree - that the word "de-focus" is wrong.

Capitol>  I don't like concept of "defocus" because people get the wrong idea that if they just look at a blurry image their vision will improve.

Otis>  Provided the person still has 20/40 vision, the word "de-focus" simply does not apply.  At 20/40 the person can avoid wearing the minus - almost all the time.  20/40 can be a TEMPORARY situation - to be gradually reduced.

Otis> With correct use of a +2.5 diopter (with practice), very little "blur" will exist.  You put the plus on, and "push away", until, yes, there is noticeable blur, then "pull in" until there is no blur.  This creates very comfortable, and "relaxing" reading, with no blur.  The purpose of doing this "distant check" is to get maximum benefit, by, "pushing away", and pulling in, to make certain you do not "lean forward" on the book.  Yes there is a certain amount of self-discipline required.  But the idea of "excessive blur" or "de-focus" totally misses the point - of wearing a preventive plus.




todd said it very well.

In fact even if you do print pushing passively (without really an active intent) you will get little to no results. improvement is indeed possible. But most peeople do vision improvement the wrong way using eye exercises, bates, eye yoga, or merely "defocusing" and get no improvement. It is a very tedious and slow process.

Also bates wasn't entirely wrong. centralizing and shifting, swinging are great for active focus. but his premise of only relaxation is probably off. you need to incorporate the bates concepts to clearing a blurry or distance image actively (for long periods of time).

i don;t like concept of "defocus" because people get the wrong idea that is they just look at a blurry image their vision will improve.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 08:05:50 PM by OtisBrown »

Offline gettingstronger12

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Re: GS12 Vision Improvement Thread
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2014, 11:01:02 PM »
Thanks guys, I really appreciate the support... and my apologies for the mini-rant.

I should clarify a couple things, first I neglected to mention in my post that I meant the plus contact lenses to be used in conjunction with print pushing and using the software. Also, I did and do fully understand the concept, and why someone (but not me) might need to use plus. I just thought using a high plus might stimulate my eyes or something, as they seem to be causing physical strain when I'm wearing them.

Anyway I think what I'm going to do is:
-Get contacts, as low as possible for comfortable computer work, with the left (weaker) eye a bit clearer than the right to encourage improvement and "catch up." I will use the dailies as they come in boxes of thirty so I can make a good guess first and then adjust as needed.
-Buy low (~1D) minus glasses to carry around in case I need to see something a bit further.
-Apply the print pushing principle whenever possible, reading on the train, working at the computer (moving my head back ever so slightly), etc.
-Use that Ultimeyes software

Any advice on how to keep track of progress given the above, as the Snellen is all but useless for a prescription as bad as mine? Or just use it with the low contacts on, then adjust if/when I can move down a line?

Thanks everyone