Plus lenses vs. distance pushing for computer slouching

[svartberg]

I've been looking into is eyesight vs. computer slouching, which seems mostly instinctual
In layman terms, for the brain slouching is "good" because it lets you see better, and with eyesight the primary sense for our species it takes priority over many other things.

I believe pushing the monitor away is better than increasing plus lenses, and here's why :
• Say you have the monitor at 60cm, slouching can reduce that distance a good 6-10cm, that's 10-16% and is significant.
• Now let's say you read a sign at 20m, slouching 6-10cm will reduce distance 0.3%-0.5%, that is insignificant.
Finally pushing the monitor away increases the distance. However plus lenses multiply it, essentially meaning the distance remains the same where slouching is concerned.

So I've been slowly pushing the monitor away instead of increasing my plus lenses, and noticed my slouching been decreasing as well.
Ideally even if I could push the monitor indefinitely, I would still keep a +0.5 and +0.25, to counter the eyesight deterioration throughout the day. (and decrease fatigue)
However the challenge is for most of us, a monitor can't be pushed indefinitely. so for now I will push it as far as I possibly can (73cm) before increasing plus lenses

Have you guys noticed this too ? any clever methods for pushing the monitor farther away ?

[Steven]

This is a very good idea and it woks.
Will give more details later.

[svartberg]

This is a very good idea and it woks.
Will give more details later.

Thanks, looking forward for your reply mate !

Hi Steven,

I agree that the problem (negative status of the natural eye) starts because the child "leans forward" on his book.  Some children ...

Thank you for the reply Mr. Brown

I think you have misread the post, that is exactly the opposite of what I highlight here.
Slouching is a result of a healthy brain activity, it is instinctual. It shouldn't be fought against but instead prevented by increasing distance.

Please read the original post carefully, I have devoted countless hours over the last 3 years studying external effects on posture (muscular, mental, and environmental), I have had great success so far, cheers

[chris1213]

Hi svartberg,

I'm also doing what you explain. I am pushing the computer as far as I can so I can do print pushing, the only problem is I think my myopia is no longer that high that I see any blur, all I get is some kind of double image. I'm thinking that the best thing to do would be to combine this approach with the plus lenses by working about 2 hours with the plus and the rest of the day that I need to stay in front of the computer just push the screen as far as I can.

I think that what Otis meant by children "sitting up" when doing close work is that by keeping a fixed distance from whatever the children are doing they wouldn't fall into a more negative focused state, thus in the long term, it would prevent myopia from developing.

You said "I have devoted countless hours over the last 3 years studying external effects on posture (muscular, mental, and environmental), I have had great success so far, cheers." I'm interested in knowing what you've learned if you don't mind sharing it.

Thanks for the post,

Chirs

[svartberg]

Good timing. Just updated the close work post. Hope it helps. The human body should be constantly in motion  - studies are coming out that long duration of immobility accelerates aging, and it's not enough just to have 30 minutes of exercise per day.

Thanks lotsa good info in your thread, it will take me some time to read through it !

Hi svartberg,

I'm also doing what you explain. I am pushing the computer as far as I can so I can do print pushing, the only problem is I think my myopia is no longer that high that I see any blur, all I get is some kind of double image. I'm thinking that the best thing to do would be to combine this approach with the plus lenses by working about 2 hours with the plus and the rest of the day that I need to stay in front of the computer just push the screen as far as I can.

You said "I have devoted countless hours over the last 3 years studying external effects on posture (muscular, mental, and environmental), I have had great success so far, cheers." I'm interested in knowing what you've learned if you don't mind sharing it.

Thanks for the post,

Chirs

Thanks for the reply, really interesting experience you share.
You're obviously more advanced than me, I still have quite some myopia and haven't encountered double vision except for one eyed snellen.
One interesting thing is I've noticed degradation of 0.25D throughout the day, so atm I switch from +0.75 to +0.5 at midday.

The posture stuff is too much to share in a post or even a thread, However whenever I get positive results I post it somewhere.
I think my biggest contribution is regarding reversal of Anterior Pelvic Tilt, and Kyphosis via stabilization exercises & myofascial release.
That somewhat related to lower back, neck, shoulder pain, etc ... surprisingly that was the easy part to fix, the hard part is modifying resting posture, I believe eyesight plays a big part here.
If you want to know more, just google "thebrobrah's guide", I got many posts here, and even pictures of my 2+ years journey.

If you don't mind, I'm curious what distances do you currently set the monitor at, and what plus lenses do you wear in conjuction ? Cheers

[chris1213]

I put the monitor at about 1 meter, when I have to use the computer. But to "train" my eyes, I do 2 - 3 hours a day of plus lenses, not continually though. I might do 2 hours and then 1, separately or 1 hour and half and then the other hour and half later. Always with breaks.  I barely started this approach because I was using a +1 all day for close work but I noticed my eyes would feel fatigued more than anything. I'm sticking with this because it's what I have time for right now as my schedule is kind of busy.

If it works I'll keep you updated, if it doesn't I'll find something else.

Chris

[OtisBrown]

Hi Chris
Good to see you  are still wearing the plus.  My nephew in fact wore the plus through the college years.  But he always made certain he passes
the 20/40 line, and in due course passed the 20/20 line. (No optometrist involvement). 

I always recommend you check your own Snellen personally. I  know for a fact, that ODs do not do this - which is always a mistake.  There is a lot of self-discipline and insight to do this - to the extent I realize it must be done.

Medicine is "default".  They never get beyond that point - sorry to say. I will not "fight" them, but they truly can  not  help me - so I must help myself.

I put the monitor at about 1 meter, when I have to use the computer. But to "train" my eyes, I do 2 - 3 hours a day of plus lenses, not continually though. I might do 2 hours and then 1, separately or 1 hour and half and then the other hour and half later. Always with breaks.  I barely started this approach because I was using a +1 all day for close work but I noticed my eyes would feel fatigued more than anything. I'm sticking with this because it's what I have time for right now as my schedule is kind of busy.

If it works I'll keep you updated, if it doesn't I'll find something else.

Chris

[svartberg]

I put the monitor at about 1 meter, when I have to use the computer. But to "train" my eyes, I do 2 - 3 hours a day of plus lenses, not continually though. I might do 2 hours and then 1, separately or 1 hour and half and then the other hour and half later. Always with breaks.  I barely started this approach because I was using a +1 all day for close work but I noticed my eyes would feel fatigued more than anything. I'm sticking with this because it's what I have time for right now as my schedule is kind of busy.

If it works I'll keep you updated, if it doesn't I'll find something else.

Chris

Cheers, yes that makes sense, I think even TomLu mentioned on his thread 1 meter is ideal distance where close work stress becomes insignificant

I can relate to the fatigue you feel from doing high plus 2-3 hours, or mid plus all day long, I could never get used to either of those.
For the last couple months I've been splitting the day to 2 plus lenses instead (e.g. +0.75, then switch to +0.5 at midday), I was eventually able to get used to it and I experience little to no eye fatigue anymore, nor the interference to my work

There is unfortunately very little info on this around, but apparently there is a natural eye degradation of about -0.25 throughout the day, then I'd say -0.5 at the last 1-2 hours before we go to sleep.
This may or may not be relevant or apply to you, but good to keep in mind.

Thanks for the post, good info !

[chris1213]

Hi Otis,

Yeah, still wearing the plus. Something I know for sure is that I've learned quite well the danger of the minus (while worn up close) cause for a time I wanted to stop and go back to wearing contact lenses again (just because I don't like spectacles) but just for knowing how wearing the minus up close can elongate the eyes I reconsidered my decision.

Sometimes my problem is more with the results and not with wearing the plus. Since I started the "plus lens method" just by completely taking off my contacts, I feel it's kind of harder to keep track of my results. That's why I tried the Frauenfeld method, but I didn't really adopt it completely. I went for an eye check up and here's my progress: http://frauenfeldclinic.com/myopia-forums/topic/excellent-progress-eye-exam/ . But then I think that astigmatism prescription might be over-prescribed but I don't really have the money to be paying more check ups.

Anyways, I'll keep doing the plus method and hope that maybe I'll gain more improvements. I think that if I could completely clear out the 20/25 line I would be fine haha.

[OtisBrown]

Chris,

Otis> When I was nearsighted, (-7 diopters) I could only DREAM of passing the 20/40 line.   I got down that "low" because of a child's "bad habits", that create initially about -1 diopter. But then comes an "enthusastic" over-prescribing OD.  For 20/40, you get a -1.5 to -2 diopter lens.  This is where the "objectors" in medicine are correct, (both Bates and Raphaelson).  It is this over-prescription police, and wearing a minus 16/7 that truly "kills" the eye.  (I agree that this is not "intentional", but the results are always the same - stair-case myopia.))

Chris>  I'm 19, I needed glasses since I was 13 (2007), I rarely wore them though, I only wore contact lenses from 2010 - 2012 (Last eye exam: end of 2011): R -2.00 -0.75 010 L -1.5 -0.75 180 --------- Currently: R -1 C -1.25 Axis 23 L -0.75 C -1.25 Axis 169

Otis>  As I suggested, I AVOID the OD and his measurements.  With some education, it is better that you make them yourself.  But, as I suggested, passing the 20/40 line, and self-checking is indeed critical for your long-term visual welfare.  No optometrist is going to "volunteer" this information to you - so you have to learn it  on your own.

Otis> Because so many people are over-prescribed, I never rely on an prescription.  I strongly suggest you put up a Snellen and do your own checking.  Your OD simply does not "care" about your long-term distant vision.  He assumes that ANY PREVENTION IS IMPOSSIBLE, or that it is NEVER "his responsibility". So, check your Snellen.  You do not have to tell us - but you should be honest with yourself - objectively.

Otis> Yes, my nephew wore the plus through college. Is that excessive, or too much to ask for?  That will indeed be your choice.  In class (with 20/40) you can get along with no minus, and not wear the plus.  But at home, and in private, I certainly recommend you do it.

Otis>  We know now (check my site) that long-term close work does not "cause myopia".  But it ALWAYS creates "negative status" for the natural eye.  (Yes, I know you will not like my words.)  This required close-work, does produce -1/2 diopter per year (down) for each year in school.  I do not know if you believe it - but I do.

Otis> That means, to me, that wearing the plus (and no minus, and passing the 20/40 line) is critical.  But you must convince yourself of these facts. No OD is in a position to help you with this personal issue.

Otis> I would NEVER again go to an OD, unless I checked my Snellen FIRST at  home.  That is my responsiblity - to myself.

Hi Otis,

Yeah, still wearing the plus. Something I know for sure is that I've learned quite well the danger of the minus (while worn up close) cause for a time I wanted to stop and go back to wearing contact lenses again (just because I don't like spectacles) but just for knowing how wearing the minus up close can elongate the eyes I reconsidered my decision.

Sometimes my problem is more with the results and not with wearing the plus. Since I started the "plus lens method" just by completely taking off my contacts, I feel it's kind of harder to keep track of my results. That's why I tried the Frauenfeld method, but I didn't really adopt it completely. I went for an eye check up and here's my progress: http://frauenfeldclinic.com/myopia-forums/topic/excellent-progress-eye-exam/ . But then I think that astigmatism prescription might be over-prescribed but I don't really have the money to be paying more check ups.

Anyways, I'll keep doing the plus method and hope that maybe I'll gain more improvements. I think that if I could completely clear out the 20/25 line I would be fine haha.

[OtisBrown]

Additional Remarks for Chris,

Chris>  I'm 19, I needed glasses since I was 13 (2007), I rarely wore them though, I only wore contact lenses from 2010 - 2012 (Last eye exam: end of 2011): R -2.00 -0.75 010 L -1.5 -0.75 180 --------- Currently: R -1 C -1.25 Axis 23 L -0.75 C -1.25 Axis 169.

Otis> If I read this correctly (your current) you have improved your vision by a substantial amount. The "axis" is not important. But the OD just converted the "spherical", into astigmatism. But even so, that gives you -2. and -2 for both eyes.  That implies that you are in "total blur" beyond about 50 cm or 2 inches.  I think this is over-prescription.  This is again the reason why you must  check your own Snellen. 

Otis>  The OD wants to prescribe for incredible "sharpness".  For me, I would seek to avoid wearing this prescription.  I accept that I *must* pass the 20/40 line, on my "home Snellen".  I would always "convert" a prescription to "spherical equivalent", by taking 1/2 the cylinder and add it to the first number.  (i.e., R-2.0 works out to -2.5 diopters spherical equivalent.  (If less than -1.5 diopters astig - I would always do that.)  For L, it would come out to about 2.25 diopters.

Otis> But, even so, it is impossible to tell what your naked-eye Snellen is.  That is why it is essential that you check yourself.  My estiimate would be about 20/50 to 20/70.  That means you can function with no minus - most of the time.  (I order my own minus or plus from Zennioptical - because I simply do not trust an OD anymore.)

Otis> It is clear that you would have to "cut" the strength of the plus you can use.  But here again, you can try - if you are interested.  It does take great personal resolve to truly wear the plus - to the extent I think it is necessary.  That is why I do not "blame" the OD - except for their over-prescription policy.  I a m not going to "fight" them about it, however.

[svartberg]

Back to topic, it seems challenging to increase monitor distance to ideal 1 meter (apparently I can push it to about 77cm)

The most obvious solution is to get a deeper desk, dreading it as I custom built this one myself.
Even with my monitor stand (ergotron I think) there's a good 10cm gap to the wall.
If I've found a way to mount monitor to wall somehow, I could just pull desk away until I get 1 meter.

Anyway there's still quite a few months until I will reach 77cm, I'll see how things develop until then.

[svartberg]

Update, I've pushed the monitor as far as it can go, about 78cm.
Without a doubt I can say there's way less slouching than the beginning (50cm), and print pushing is more efficient (and aggressive)

One thing I've noticed is how smaller the monitor looked compared to the original 50cm.
For regular work there was no issue, but with games/movies the smaller Field of Vision seemed to cause slouching during suspense moment (i.e. trigger for fight or flight)
I ended up getting a bigger monitor which helped a lot (with same pixel-per-inch, so text size remains the same)

I can now imagine how ideal is 1 meter (as Tom suggested), but I think is a problem for most people due to (1) lack of desk real-estate (2) lack/cost of such big monitors to compensate for the FOV as mentioned above

[NickGrouwen]

When you've reached the point where you can't push your monitor away anymore, you could maybe try changing the screen resolution? Or go into your browser settings and decrease the letter size.

[svartberg]

When you've reached the point where you can't push your monitor away anymore, you could maybe try changing the screen resolution? Or go into your browser settings and decrease the letter size.

No mate the point is physical distance from your eyes, and how it effects slouching.

I've attached an image which explains it better