Author Topic: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey  (Read 25723 times)

Offline OtisBrown

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Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
« Reply #30 on: September 16, 2014, 03:55:50 PM »
Yd> No, but it would give you more credibility. 

Otis> No it would DESTROY my engineering and scientific credibility.

Otis> If I were SELLING something, then I would make wild claims.  (As you see in so many places).

Otis> I only suggested that it would be wise to start with prevention, before your Snellen goes below 20/40.

Otis> The worse thing that anyone could do would be to say, "... cure everything".  I never said, "cure".

Otis> Even Bates said, DO NOT START WEARING A MINUS LENS. (When at 20/40 to 20/70).  I completely agree with him.

Otis> In fact, I accept that only prevention (at 20/40) is even possible.  But if you get your own minus lens - you can prescribe for yourself - which gives you full control - if you want it.

Otis> But here is the point-of-view of an OD in his office.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_aqg6NH_kk

Otis>  They deal with the "ignorant" and not-motivated general public - that can not be inspired, or "cured".  The only answer in an office is an over-prescribed lens, that does kill  you vision, or make matters far worse.

Otis> Quite a few of you believe that an OD is interested in prevention (where they do not charge you money for it).  You are sadly mistaken.

Otis> I would rather be told a tough brutal, and HONEST truth, than to be fed the, "office non-sense", that it is all heredity, and nothing can be done, so shut up and wear that strong minus all the time - and your, "vision will get better".  That is the biggest and most destructive lie of all.  Then they are "hurt", when they think that you do not, "trust them" -- when they over-prescribe you by at least -1.0 diopters at EVERY SITTING.

Otis> No, I do not "hate" them for that.  But there has to be a better way.  Even if I must "wise up" and do it all myself.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 04:24:30 AM by OtisBrown »

Offline Ydgrunite

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Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
« Reply #31 on: September 17, 2014, 06:38:04 AM »
So, if I understand it correctly, the target audience of people that you believe that you can help are those who have never worn the minus lens.  Why would those people be searching the internet for a solution  to a problem that they don't even know that they have yet?

Most people that seek out forums like this one seem to already have a minus lens, even if it is only -1.0 D.

But you say that there is no hope for people once they start wearing a minus lens.

Prevention would indeed be the best thing but, even if someone is using a minus lens, improvement is still possible.

Stop discouraging people who currently wear minus lenses.  These are the people who come looking for a solution and they can be helped.

You failed to reduce your myopia, but many have succeeded.

Offline Alex_Myopic

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Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
« Reply #32 on: September 17, 2014, 10:25:57 AM »

Stop discouraging people who currently wear minus lenses.  These are the people who come looking for a solution and they can be helped.


It is true that Mr Brown speaks sometimes with (scientific) austerity. I too believe that if a person is at 20/40 and never has worn minus it is easy for him to get to 20/20 in months or a year so ODs have some big blaim not suggesting it. In his (Mr Brown's) blog he also writes that even at 20/60 or 20/70 very motivated people (like pilots) can have success (to the degree of going about 20/20).

On the other hand stopping the progression or even decreasing myopia is a big success for not getting pathogenic myopia mainly. In high myopia a person doesn't need a plus too.

Dr Alex gave a lot of information about active focus and other stuff for free and a program for a reasonable price. If someone knows something better he should also give it for free. There are many people like me who are at plateaus or at small rates or at high myopia who need that!!!
« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 10:31:20 AM by Alex_Myopic »

Offline warnbd

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Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
« Reply #33 on: September 17, 2014, 10:56:10 AM »
Since I started this thread, I will attempt to referee this disagreement going on.

First, the credibility comment is a bit of a cheap shot.  A trained heart surgeon can effectively perform heart surgeries, even though he has not personally had a heart attack and recovered.  He can be effective with the proper training and expertise.

However, some clarifications are need.  I think when Otis is talking about prevention, it is taking action at -1.0 D or less before using minus lenses.  Prevention being defined as using plus lenses when doing close work.

Let me define "prevention" as use of a plus lens not necessarily at its focal plane.  For example, if I do reading with the print at 20 inches, and I use +2.0 D plus lenses (focal length 39”), there is no print pushing going on.  This is still protective as the eye’s lenses are not being pushed hard to see the print.

Perhaps, if this type of prevention(as defined above) is done by someone at -1.0 D, before axial myopia has begun, a slow return to 20/20 will occur over time at a rate of +.50 D per year.  This is how I would interpret Otis’s prevention comments.

I want to contrast this with “plus lens therapy”, which I define as purposeful pushing print into blur (or distance pulling) to induce axial changes to the eye.  I also would define plus lens therapy as relative to one’s myopic state.   If one has -3.0 D, using -2.0 D lens would be “plus” +1.0 in a relative sense.  This process can correct various myopic levels to normal as evidenced by the many anecdotal stories on this forum and others, including Todd Becker.  I do not think Otis would suggest that restoring vision is not possible.  Also, with my own experience so far, and others like Todd, Alex, etc., rates of improvement can be way beyond +.50 D per year. 

Using my definitions, I think some of the disagreement can be resolved.   I invite Otis and others to respond if I have clarified correctly.  The quote I can not yet understand is the one below that pertains to the masses that have been wearing minus for a long time.  I hope that my distant vision is not permanently lost. :-\

  I certainly think you distant vision is permanently lost - if you even START wearing a minus lens. 


« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 11:00:15 AM by warnbd »

Offline OtisBrown

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Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
« Reply #34 on: September 17, 2014, 12:14:13 PM »
Hi Yd,

Otis> I am certain you are a sincere dedicated person.  But I believe in science, and fact - and that science and fact do not allow me to make "false claims" or excessive claims.  I never wish to mis-lead a person in to believing he can get out of -9 diopters, when the scientific reality is that steady increases in a strong minus lens, over 10 years, have gotten him down to -9 diopters.

Yd> So, if I understand it correctly, the target audience of people that you believe that you can help are those who have never worn the minus lens.  Why would those people be searching the internet for a solution  to a problem that they don't even know that they have yet?

Otis>  You are making an assumption about *MY* target audience.  It is not the "general public", it is not you, it was my sister's children.  I had no desire to see them even START wearing a strong minus, when they could still pass the 20/40 line (about -1 diopter).  But the real issue is this.  OVER-PRESCRIPTION of a minus lens.  People who have 20/40, will often get a -2 to -2.5 diopter lens, when they should check their own Snellen, and NOT wear the minus.  I refuse to take responsiblity for the adverse effect of a minus lens (on all natural eyes) - once you choose to even START wearing a minus lens.

Yd> Most people that seek out forums like this one seem to already have a minus lens, even if it is only -1.0 D.

Otis> But, "most people", are in FEAR of wearing a plus a that point, and will REFUSE to even consider NOT wearing a minus.  That is tragic, but a person must understand the basic facts that I present.

http://myopiafree.wordpress.com/study/

Otis> ODs look at this, and say it is all your "bad heredity".  (-1/2 diotper per year for each year in school).  I look at it, and say, prevention is still possible - if you have the intense motivation to reject the minus lens, and WEAR THE PLUS WITH THE DEDICATION REQUIRED.  This is truly a PERSONAL choice, never a medical choice.  Here again, if I do not make this issue clear, it looks like I am giving, "medical advice", which his not the case.

Otis> Are far a getting out of it (-1 diopter and 20/40) I suggested that a 20/40 you can stop wearing a minus,  for some time. (Get your own minus from Zennioptical.  But here is what I believe is the official rate of improvement.  It is +1/2 diopter per year.

http://myopiafree.wordpress.com/od-success/

Otis> I doubt that a person at -9 diopters will get out of it, so I do not mis-lead him to suggest that he can.

Otis> But the real issue is not what *I* believe, or what *YOU* think I should believe.  It is up to Warnbd, for him to choose what he wishes to believe, and what actions he might wish to do to achieve normal vision.  It is very clear to me that no OD can help him.  But there is a possibility that Warnbd can help himself.

Otis> I will not fight an OD about this issue.



So, if I understand it correctly, the target audience of people that you believe that you can help are those who have never worn the minus lens.  Why would those people be searching the internet for a solution  to a problem that they don't even know that they have yet?

Most people that seek out forums like this one seem to already have a minus lens, even if it is only -1.0 D.

But you say that there is no hope for people once they start wearing a minus lens.

Prevention would indeed be the best thing but, even if someone is using a minus lens, improvement is still possible.

Stop discouraging people who currently wear minus lenses.  These are the people who come looking for a solution and they can be helped.

You failed to reduce your myopia, but many have succeeded.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 12:17:08 PM by OtisBrown »

Offline warnbd

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Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
« Reply #35 on: September 17, 2014, 01:39:18 PM »
Hi jimboston,

I am going to put together a comprehensive response to your questions, as I think this may be helpful to many, but first can you clarify what you were referring to in the quote, ....correct for personal bias...? 

I'd like to know whether you correct for personal bias, as 0.25D a month is great but not typical rate of improvement.

Thank you

Offline warnbd

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Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
« Reply #36 on: September 18, 2014, 07:53:04 AM »
Hi Jim,

I will address the measurement question first.  You asked how I evaluate my progress.  Because of my astigmatism, I have not used the Snellen chart with bare eyes much, due to the astigmatic blurriness masking the results.  I do use the Snellen with my distance glasses to determine where I am at.  I do have some trial test lenses to put in front of my distance glasses (+ or -).  For example if adding a -.50 sph test lens brings an eye to 20/20, then I would add that to the known glasses spherical value.

For my Snellen check, I try to keep everything consistent, to get repeatable measurements.  I use the same chart, with the same lighting, with the same distance, and in the morning.  I mostly use the Snellen when I am getting closer to needing the next set of glasses.  My threshold to “pass” a chart line is that I want to be able to recognize all letters on that line, while seeing less than ½ the letters on the next line.  I use an on-line chart that I can refresh the letters to take away the “bias” on using the same chart, whose letters cannot change.  Also I do not allow myself to squint.  I relax, blink and then look at the chart (looking through distance glasses).  I check both eyes together and with individual eyes.  If I find that one eye is .25 D different than the other in acuity,  I note that and adjust the next prescription.

My approach is to go with .50 sph D under-correction for distance glasses, and 1.75 D under for reading glasses.  This puts my D1 distance at about 20”.   As the days go by, I check the D1 distance from my forehead to the laptop screen nearly every day.  This measurement will vary, but as the D1 gets into the 28-32” range, I know to do a careful Snellen check to see where I am at.  Ideally, I like to get to 20/15(with distance glasses) with both eyes and 20/20 on individual eyes before going to new glasses. 

As far as astigmatism checking, I do use cylinder test lenses while looking at a spoke wheel picture to get the power needed and the cylinder axis angle.  Through experience, I can look at this spoke wheel picture and determine the cylinder by the look of the grayer or blurrier lines relative to the darker or sharper lines.

I feel this method works for me and is a good enough objective measurement to track my progress.  I realize that this must be done consistently to maximize the accuracy.  I have had enough eye exams over 40 years to know if what I am doing is similar to that resulting from the office exam. 

Now, in your post, you mentioned using an auto-refractor as being ideal.  I would respectfully disagree with that assumption.  I did some investigation on autorefracting and found a consensus that at best, an auto-refractor is nearly as good as manual refracting process (assuming there is a good technician).  The recommended use for auto refractors is to get a good starting point for the final manual lens refracting work, or to use for prescription in the case of children or those with developmental or communicative impairments.  An auto refractor cannot fully duplicate the complex interaction between brain and eyes, and also doesn’t account for the final effect of the lenses, that have their own optical aberrations and diffraction effects.  Therefore I would never be comfortable with a final prescription from an auto-refractor without “tweaking” with actual test lenses to get the full effect of actual glasses on the brain/eye optical system.  This is all assuming you have a competent optician that does not over-correct you to 20/15.

With the progress being made, I do not see any need to go in and get a "official" eye exam.  When I get to the 20/20 area, I may for fun go in and get an exam to verify and compare.  I will bring in my last "official" prescription and see if they can explain the change to the current optical status. 

warnbd

Offline warnbd

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Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
« Reply #37 on: September 18, 2014, 10:01:15 AM »
JimBoston,

This is in response to your questions about my clearing blur.  In general, I would say I am following the Becker protocol.  I go back and forth between D1 and D2 distances to trigger the focus.  I do use blinking, as it seems to reset things and trigger a blur clearing.  Sometimes, I do not get clearing right away and it takes several blinks before triggering, or going back to D1 to re-establish focus.  I believe it is this back and forth between D1 and D2 is an oscillation of the focal plane position that triggers the axial length changes.  The focal plane image hovers between on the retina to just in front of the retina.  Doing this over and over again and for long periods per day, results in more rapid progress.  When the focus is achieved, I try to hold to for a few seconds before blinking.  If you try to hold it too long, the eyes dry out and get irritated. I know you do not like hypothesizing, but I think the common thread of the success stories is repeatedly putting the image close to but in front of the retina.  Staring at a non-changing blurred text image is not enough.  I think the oscillation of focus to non-focus to focus, etc. is the key.

I think each individual has to find the nuances to help this focus trigger.  Some have found the PVS CRB to be helpful in this, but I did not.  Some will do a hard blink to make this work.  Adding a little tension to the eyelids sometimes helps (not squinting). 

I have not found eye rotations as being useful.  Although it is helpful after holding a clear flash, to close the eyes and while closed move eyes back and forth.  This seems to sooth the eyes, and re-lubricate them also.  In the beginning of this process, I did do some eye rotations and found that there was some ocular stiffness on one eye when looking up and left.  This tightness went away and has not returned. 

I think the rate of progress is dependent on the time put in and the challenge that you make to the eyes.  If you divide 2.5 D change over 8 months, this is approx. .31 diopters per month.  If you look at CapitalPrince father’s results, 1.0 diopter in 3 months, this is .33 diopters per month. 

This may be the upper end of the rate of progress possible.  Trying to go further usually results in over doing it.  There are many days that I did over do it, and it results in fatigued eyes that are worse off the next day, requiring some recovery time for a day or two. 

This progress is not a linear even process.  I have had 3-5 week plateaus, followed by more rapid change.  I have found that when changing to the next set of glasses, this seems to trigger some quicker changes in the following few days. 

This is still a learning curve to me, and hoping this continues to 20/20.  I think I will get to the DMV approved milestone in a month or two.

warnbd

Offline warnbd

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Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
« Reply #38 on: September 22, 2014, 10:12:39 AM »
JimBoston,

I try to do as many hours as I can per day, probably averaging 3 to 4 hours per day.  As the day progresses, the eyes get some strain, and the acuity does gets worse, probably .25 diopter from morning to evening.  Then it is important for good sleep to reset again.  If I overdo it on a particular day, I can tell the difference the next morning with less acuity.

As far the oscillation concept, it can come in two ways.  If you are at D2, with some blurriness and then get focus, hold it then blink, often you lose the focus.  Rinse and repeat.  This is moving the image plane back and forth from just in front of the retina to at the retina.  In this case the image(inside the eye) is moving (oscillation) without physically moving the viewing plane (book or screen) relative to your eye. This is the most common method for this movement.

The other way is moving the viewing plane from D1 to D2, back to D1, etc.  This also is moving the image plane in the back of the eye. The distance from D1 to D2 is more of a clarity difference, rather than a measured cm distance.  This distance is also dependent on D1.  If one has D1 at 20", versus 40", the depth of field will also double.  Meaning from the same amount of slight defocus, the D1 to D2 will be different for different viewing planes. If I move to a D2 that is too much, I will struggle to get the focus.  In this case, I go back to D1 and then try again. 

The bottom line is to keep the image "dancing" back and forth in front of and at the retina, hopefully stimulating the focus mechanism (to promote flattening of the lens) and encouraging the axial length shortening over time. 

Regarding the auto-refractor discussion, I did base my comments on studies that I came across.  Ultimately this is a bit academic on measurement methods.  The important thing for each person wanting long term myopia reduction is to have some consistent method to measure your own progress(I described my method earlier in this thread).  If the conditions that are setup consistently and one follows them consistently, relative progress will be noticed, and will give you reasons to purchase the next set of under-corrected lenses.

If one is fooling themselves in their measurements, reality will quickly catch up with you, as you won't be able see well with the next set of glasses. 


Offline OtisBrown

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Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
« Reply #39 on: September 22, 2014, 08:46:13 PM »
Hi Warn,

I want to congratulate you on your progress since Jan 2014.

Warn>  As of early Jan.:   Left:  -4.75 sph, +2.75 cyl  and Right: -3.50 sph, +1.75 cyl.

I know that it takes great persistence, self-measurement and control to work yourself back to naked eye 20/40.   ( I do accept that you wish to reduce the astigmatic component.)

What I think you are doing RIGHT, is to get and use your own test-lenses.  It is important for this reason.

1) If you can clear your Snellen to 20/20 (which I know you have done), it proves you have no true medical problem (like detached retina, etc.)

2) If you could not get 20/20, from your test lenses, that is the point where I go to an ophthalmologist. 

3) That is to circumvent the "Bates problem", in that I think the person must make this check himself.  Otherwise, he might try to get out of cataract, or detached retina - and that would truly be a bad situation.

You have the tools and knowledge to know the challenge that you face.  Probably, our only disagreement, is that I highly value 20/40 vision, as a point where I can (almost) discard a minus lens.  I do not have significant cylinder, and my refractive status checks are done with a spherical lens

Please continue to post - it will probably take another nine months to get to comfortable 20/30 to 20/25 for you.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2014, 04:07:39 AM by OtisBrown »

Offline warnbd

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Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
« Reply #40 on: September 23, 2014, 07:13:56 AM »
jimboston,

If I remember right, Todd's talk about double vision was regarding distance viewing, like power lines, edges of buildings etc.  With astigmatism, this double vision (one darker, one faint) is more noticeable and images further apart as the distance increases.  I do not recall Todd talking about double image when doing near work.  If having trouble focusing at smaller font, it seems to help to go to bigger font to capture focus and return to the smaller font.  This works at a on-line news site, where there is a variety of font sizes on the same page. 

For me, with the last set of glasses, I now am having more double image issues(in each eye), due to my rapid reduction of cylinder.  When reading it is almost not detectable (until end of day when eyes are tired).  But at 12 feet away on smaller print on the TV, I see a ghost blurred image of the letters directly below the distinct image.  I hope to ignore the faint double and have it gradually go away.  This double thing has not been much of an issue until now, maybe a sign of good progress according to Todd.

As far as the oscillation, do not forget the type that you stay at D2, while it is out of focus, then bring into focus (blink) and hold it until you have to blink, and maybe lose the focus again.  Staying there at D2, repeat. 

As far as the training, I do both single-minded training, and integrate with other reading tasks.  With distance glasses, I also always try to to distance pulling too when outside or watching TV across the room, driving, etc.  It is almost a lifestyle commitment to find opportunities to do vision work. 

warnbd
« Last Edit: September 23, 2014, 12:55:52 PM by warnbd »

Offline warnbd

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Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
« Reply #41 on: September 25, 2014, 05:33:27 AM »
Jimboston,

As far as the oscillation, do not forget the type that you stay at D2, while it is out of focus, then bring into focus (blink) and hold it until you have to blink, and maybe lose the focus again.  Staying there at D2, repeat. 

warnbd,

Now that you have mentioned it twice, I translate your suggestions into two separate techniques:

1. Oscillating between blur and clarity (D2 & D1), occasionally "grabbing" a clear image at D1 in order to trigger clearing at D2.
2. Alternating between blinking and staring at a fixed distance beyond the blur point (D2).

I want to clarify your second point, the fixed distance version is still at D2, not necessarily beyond D2.

Offline warnbd

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Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
« Reply #42 on: September 25, 2014, 05:23:23 PM »
Jigsaw,

Your description of double vision and astigmatism sounds very similar to what i am going through.  With my most recent set of glasses, this is much more noticeable.  I believe I have been reducing my cylinder power at a faster rate that is out-pacing my cylinder improvement, while the spherical improvement is what I base the decision for new glasses.  My difference is that it is horizontal lines are double or ghosted with the vertical being clear.  For text, this creates a faint ghost of the letters shifting down by 1/2 letter height.  If my eyes get tired, more fatigued, the ghosting shift gets bigger and the ghosting is less faint. 

Hopefully this is just a temporary phase that happens after one is past halfway to 20/20.  Also similar to you, my double vision is in each eye individually, therefore not a brain fusion problem.  I have not really done the stare and blink method, will have to experiment with it. 

Offline warnbd

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Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
« Reply #43 on: October 13, 2014, 08:33:54 AM »
Hi All,

It has been about a month since my last status update.  I have been using the on-line Snellen chart for checking, which gives me consistent backlighting on my laptop, which is not as bright as direct sunlight or bright incandescent indoors.  I do this to better reflect what the DMV might have for lighting.

With bare eyes(together only) I am able to get 100% letter recognition for 20/40 line, and with a few more blinks 100% of the 20/30 line.  Again this despite the ghosting issue.  The double vision has gotten a little better, with road signs being much less annoying to look at.   For near work, I am trying no lens on left (0 sph, 0 cyl), and +.50 sph, 0 cyl on the right.  i can get D2 out to approx. 26".  This gives me an approx. 1.50 (equiv. sph.) LEFT, and 1.00 sph on RIGHT for 20/20. 

I will probably wait until mid Nov. for next therapy glasses set.  In the distance glasses, I will still retain some cylinder amount to keep eye strain tolerable with distance (>10ft).

I also been experimenting with Accommodation Rock, and this seems to help reduce the double vision when my eyes get more tired.  It seems to do a bit of reset.  Also, for eye rest break, I have been using an eye mask (used by some at night to block out light) for 2 or 3 minutes at a time when eyes are fatigued.  This also helps do a reset, and is easier than palming.

All in all, progress goes on, hoping for 20/20 by next Feb/Mar. 

warnbd

Offline OtisBrown

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Re: My Myopia/Astigmatism Journey
« Reply #44 on: October 13, 2014, 09:05:44 AM »
Hi Warnbd,

Subject: Self-confirmed objective progress - is the progress you BELIEVE.

I am pleased you get your lenses from Zennioptical.  They do a good job at low cost. 

For myself, I am wearing a +2.5 when I type this, although I CAN read at type with out them.  This is my leadership position.

I am pleased you like the Electronic-Snellen.  I think it is better for most people - just to be consistent with good brightness.  I prefer the 20 foot Snellen, because I do not want to walk back and forth to press "display" - unless you can get someone to do that for you.

http://www.smbs.buffalo.edu/oph/ped/IVAC/IVAC.html


As always, I recommend the strongest plus possible, for comfort and ease of use.

This is indeed a very slow process - for anyone who had been able to do it.


Hi All,

It has been about a month since my last status update.  I have been using the on-line Snellen chart for checking, which gives me consistent backlighting on my laptop, which is not as bright as direct sunlight or bright incandescent indoors.  I do this to better reflect what the DMV might have for lighting.

With bare eyes(together only) I am able to get 100% letter recognition for 20/40 line, and with a few more blinks 100% of the 20/30 line.  Again this despite the ghosting issue.  The double vision has gotten a little better, with road signs being much less annoying to look at.   For near work, I am trying no lens on left (0 sph, 0 cyl), and +.50 sph, 0 cyl on the right.  i can get D2 out to approx. 26".  This gives me an approx. 1.50 (equiv. sph.) LEFT, and 1.00 sph on RIGHT for 20/20. 

I will probably wait until mid Nov. for next therapy glasses set.  In the distance glasses, I will still retain some cylinder amount to keep eye strain tolerable with distance (>10ft).

I also been experimenting with Accommodation Rock, and this seems to help reduce the double vision when my eyes get more tired.  It seems to do a bit of reset.  Also, for eye rest break, I have been using an eye mask (used by some at night to block out light) for 2 or 3 minutes at a time when eyes are fatigued.  This also helps do a reset, and is easier than palming.

All in all, progress goes on, hoping for 20/20 by next Feb/Mar. 

warnbd